[Charlie Goerges]

Are Shadow Creek’s maintenance costs much higher than some other course where I’m paying say, $125?

Yes.

It’s interesting that I’ve gotten two different answers to this question. Are we talking in absolute numbers or per capita?

[Kalen Braley]

Are Shadow Creek’s maintenance costs much higher than some other course where I’m paying say, $125?

Yes.

It’s interesting that I’ve gotten two different answers to this question. Are we talking in absolute numbers or per capita?

Charlie,

Perhaps paying $125 meant something 5-10 years ago, but now with inflation and the popularity surge of the game, I'm not so sure it would mean you'd get anything close to what you'd find conditioning and service wise at SC.

[Charlie Goerges]

Are Shadow Creek’s maintenance costs much higher than some other course where I’m paying say, $125?

Yes.

It’s interesting that I’ve gotten two different answers to this question. Are we talking in absolute numbers or per capita?

Charlie,

Perhaps paying $125 meant something 5-10 years ago, but now with inflation and the popularity surge of the game, I'm not so sure it would mean you'd get anything close to what you'd find conditioning and service wise at SC.

Yes, the number isn’t really what matters to me. I’m just trying to understand the through line from retail price to maintenance costs to final conditioning of the course. These things are really all decoupled for me right now.

[Ken Moum]

Yes, the number isn’t really what matters to me. I’m just trying to understand the through line from retail price to maintenance costs to final conditioning of the course. These things are really all decoupled for me right now.

I honestly don't think you're going to find that.


And I also completely disagree that golf courses are a Veblen commodity.


Take Bandon for example.  IIRC, when it opened the prices were very reasonable.  But because it's such a special place for golf, the demand far outstripped the space available. When that happens with a golf course, There are only two real options...raise the price or set up a lottery. (or both, like TOC)


No commercial enterprise is going to keep the price low and limit income with a full tee sheet.


Of course there are other concepts, like Karsten Creek in Sillwater, OK where they don't really want a lot of play.  I was told it started about $75, and now it's well over $300 and is more or less a playground for the golf teams.  I have also been lead to believe that Mike Holder didn't build it until he had huge endowments for each hole, a story that's reinforced by the  monuments on big boulders by each tee.

[Charlie Goerges]

Yes, the number isn’t really what matters to me. I’m just trying to understand the through line from retail price to maintenance costs to final conditioning of the course. These things are really all decoupled for me right now.

I honestly don't think you're going to find that.


And I also completely disagree that golf courses are a Veblen commodity.


Take Bandon for example.  IIRC, when it opened the prices were very reasonable.  But because it's such a special place for golf, the demand far outstripped the space available. When that happens with a golf course, There are only two real options...raise the price or set up a lottery. (or both, like TOC)


No commercial enterprise is going to keep the price low and limit income with a full tee sheet.


Of course there are other concepts, like Karsten Creek in Sillwater, OK where they don't really want a lot of play.  I was told it started about $75, and now it's well over $300 and is more or less a playground for the golf teams.  I have also been lead to believe that Mike Holder didn't build it until he had huge endowments for each hole, a story that's reinforced by the  monuments on big boulders by each tee.

It’s too bad if it’s not possible to find the through line, I’ll keep trying.


I know nothing about this Veblen stuff besides what I’ve read on this thread. The only thing that sounds like that type of thing is Shadow Creek, the other ones seem like too high volume. But I have no idea.

[Ken Moum]

It’s too bad if it’s not possible to find the through line, I’ll keep trying.


I know nothing about this Veblen stuff besides what I’ve read on this thread. The only thing that sounds like that type of thing is Shadow Creek, the other ones seem like too high volume. But I have no idea.

FWIW, I think the Shadow Creek thing is only peripherally related to Veblen.  It started because Wynn made it exclusive to freinds and high rollers, which gave it a lot of cachet. When it became more open, they could charge anything.  Now, maintaining a course at that level in the desert is really, really expensive, but that's not a direct relation to green fees.


Re, high volume, that too, is relative. For instance there's no rational reason why the Castle Course and Kingsbarns have had higher fees than The Old Course.

[Sean_A]

I don't believe there is a direct link between green fee and maintenance costs other than at a raw level of maintenance costs have to be met. However, there is definitely a customer expectation connection between the two. In my experience, that expectation is not fulfilled. Which further supports the idea that there is no direct connection between green fees and maintenance costs.

A few rational reasons for Castle and Kingsbarns to have higher than expected green fees are possible land acquisition costs and limited availability due to winter closure.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

It’s too bad if it’s not possible to find the through line, I’ll keep trying.


I know nothing about this Veblen stuff besides what I’ve read on this thread. The only thing that sounds like that type of thing is Shadow Creek, the other ones seem like too high volume. But I have no idea.

FWIW, I think the Shadow Creek thing is only peripherally related to Veblen.  It started because Wynn made it exclusive to freinds and high rollers, which gave it a lot of cachet. When it became more open, they could charge anything.  Now, maintaining a course at that level in the desert is really, really expensive, but that's not a direct relation to green fees.


Re, high volume, that too, is relative. For instance there's no rational reason why the Castle Course and Kingsbarns have had higher fees than The Old Course.

The Old Course high season rack rate this year is £295; the Castle is £160. Kingsbarns _is_ more, £374. But the Castle is nowhere near the price of the Old Course.

[Pat Burke]

Well, if a club is going to


Push for fast greens
Perfect fairways (over seeding too)
    Amazing to see multiple small mowers  mowing fairways


Manicured rough
Perfect bunkers and surrounds
Edged cart paths
Perfect flower beds/plantings


Basically chasing the perfect “look”


It’s going to require a larger staff and supervision


 But I have seen plenty of clubs with resources and staff still produce meh products for what is spent on the budget.


I hope Don Mahaffey will comment on this.

[Sean_A]

It’s too bad if it’s not possible to find the through line, I’ll keep trying.


I know nothing about this Veblen stuff besides what I’ve read on this thread. The only thing that sounds like that type of thing is Shadow Creek, the other ones seem like too high volume. But I have no idea.

FWIW, I think the Shadow Creek thing is only peripherally related to Veblen.  It started because Wynn made it exclusive to freinds and high rollers, which gave it a lot of cachet. When it became more open, they could charge anything.  Now, maintaining a course at that level in the desert is really, really expensive, but that's not a direct relation to green fees.


Re, high volume, that too, is relative. For instance there's no rational reason why the Castle Course and Kingsbarns have had higher fees than The Old Course.

The Old Course high season rack rate this year is £295; the Castle is £160. Kingsbarns _is_ more, £374. But the Castle is nowhere near the price of the Old Course.

I thought the Castle was priced as the premium non TOC links trust course. I would think its a bit more than TNC. It would be very odd for the trust to price Castle higher than TOC.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

As I've said on previous similar threads, I'd like to see the number of staff, especially the size of the maintenance crew, specified on such rankings. Other wee tidbits of information like tee-time spacing, playing season duration etc would be interesting too.
Many factors contribute to costs and revenue and they are not necessarily immediately apparent.
And then with resort courses there's the time and cost of getting there and staying there. Not something that is easily factored-in but for some folks at least maybe a pretty important factor on the wallet.

atb

[Niall C]

A few rational reasons for Castle and Kingsbarns to have higher than expected green fees are possible land acquisition costs and limited availability due to winter closure.

Ciao

Not so sure. I have been told on reliable authority, which is to say I can't remember exactly who told me but it was someone involved in the running of one of these types of venues, that the reason for closing over winter is to get the course into tip top condition for the following season. Clearly their main target is overseas visitors paying full whack with locals on concessionary rates taking up the slack during peak season. Overseas visitors don't tend to come during the winter and while you might get some revenue from locals you would then have to retain seasonal staff, and the course would get a battering. Makes sense to me therefore to shut over winter.


As for the cost of acquiring the land, I doubt it would equate to more than 10 to 15% of development costs. In any case, it is the profitability of the development that determines the land value for that particular use rather than the other way round.


Niall

[Sean_A]

A few rational reasons for Castle and Kingsbarns to have higher than expected green fees are possible land acquisition costs and limited availability due to winter closure.

Ciao

Not so sure. I have been told on reliable authority, which is to say I can't remember exactly who told me but it was someone involved in the running of one of these types of venues, that the reason for closing over winter is to get the course into tip top condition for the following season. Clearly their main target is overseas visitors paying full whack with locals on concessionary rates taking up the slack during peak season. Overseas visitors don't tend to come during the winter and while you might get some revenue from locals you would then have to retain seasonal staff, and the course would get a battering. Makes sense to me therefore to shut over winter.


As for the cost of acquiring the land, I doubt it would equate to more than 10 to 15% of development costs. In any case, it is the profitability of the development that determines the land value for that particular use rather than the other way round.


Niall

If there are land acquistion costs the loan must be accounted for somehow.


I didn't suggest winter closure was implemented to create a demand for tee times. I meant there are necessarily less tee times to sell so there are fewer opportunities to cover costs. Hence, raise the greenfee. I remember thinking the Castle fee was ridiculous. In this current climate, not so much.


Ciao

[Cal Carlisle]

I don't believe there is a direct link between green fee and maintenance costs other than at a raw level of maintenance costs have to be met. However, there is definitely a customer expectation connection between the two. In my experience, that expectation is not fulfilled. Which further supports the idea that there is no direct connection between green fees and maintenance costs.

A few rational reasons for Castle and Kingsbarns to have higher than expected green fees are possible land acquisition costs and limited availability due to winter closure.

Ciao

I agree with you on the higher end of the greens fee spectrum. On the lower end I think there is definitely a connection.

I think it is very similar to upscale dining. There is so much superfluous bullshit at a Michelin starred restaurant that goes way beyond simple food costs and labor that's difficult to quantify every single cost that goes into the experience. The local chippy or barbecue restaurant, on the other hand, is much more labor and food cost tied. I think it's much easier to get an idea of whether the experience justifies the final bill.

[Ken Moum]

I did say have had higher fees.


On one trip TOC was about 140 GBP and Castle was more

[Sean_A]

I don't believe there is a direct link between green fee and maintenance costs other than at a raw level of maintenance costs have to be met. However, there is definitely a customer expectation connection between the two. In my experience, that expectation is not fulfilled. Which further supports the idea that there is no direct connection between green fees and maintenance costs.

A few rational reasons for Castle and Kingsbarns to have higher than expected green fees are possible land acquisition costs and limited availability due to winter closure.

Ciao

I agree with you on the higher end of the greens fee spectrum. On the lower end I think there is definitely a connection.

I think it is very similar to upscale dining. There is so much superfluous bullshit at a Michelin starred restaurant that goes way beyond simple food costs and labor that's difficult to quantify every single cost that goes into the experience. The local chippy or barbecue restaurant, on the other hand, is much more labor and food cost tied. I think it's much easier to get an idea of whether the experience justifies the final bill.

For sure, the ma and pa courses of the world I believe have fees directly linked to costs. That said, if most thought the market bear higher fees, they would raise the fees.

Ciao

[Charlie Goerges]

Two courses cost $50 to play, one has a dirt parking lot and a shack for a clubhouse, which course is going to be better?


Two courses cost $200 to play, one has a dirt parking lot and a shack for a clubhouse, which course is going to be better?




This is where I run into trouble and why I'm trying to figure out this cost stuff in my head.

[Padraig Dooley]

Nearly all clubs charge what they think they can get, some think they can't get much so charge too little and some think they can get a lot so charge a lot.

If you walked into boards and committees that run clubs here in Ireland and asked what the unit cost of a round was, I'd be extremely surprised if you got an answer in the majority of cases.

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