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zwalford

Shot Value and the game of Golf
« on: December 04, 2003, 10:27:55 AM »
I am in a golf course design class and we just had a lecture on shot value.  I don’t seem to grasp the importance of it.  It seems to me that shot value charts tell nothing about the course but the yardage when the pins and tees are set at the proper place.  I would be willing to say that most avid golfers would not even notice if they hit 7-iron on 3 out of 4 par 3’s as long as the course was in good condition.  I think the natural beauty of the land plays a larger role on how someone perceives a golf course rather than shot value.  I would like some other opinions on this issue, so reply and let me know if anyone feels this same way.

Jim Franklin

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Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2003, 11:17:57 AM »
I always remember what iron I hit on par 3s and if the shot calls for a cut or draw (not that I can pull off said shot each time). So I would say avid golfers do remember what they hit and prefer to hit different irons on each one shotter.
Mr Hurricane

A_Clay_Man

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2003, 11:42:07 AM »
ZWal- I'm curious, was there an actual definition or was it as I speculate different for everyone?

Plus, In practical terms the aerial assault (chocolate pudding)game has reduced the spectrum of shot values, combined with the club's specs and what you have is a loss of shotmaking. ergo, loss of shot values.

Somewhere out there are special places where one is only limited by their own imagination, but sadly, many upscale courses worry about the wrong things, which has led to this downturn, not only in shot values, but the fun that is associated with many options.

JBStansell

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2003, 11:56:11 AM »
I'm not nearly as accomplished a golfer here as others who post here, but I'll say this about my own game:  I do remember using the same club repeatedly, particularly on one-shotters, and I'd prefer to mix them up more.  Using the same club repeatedly is boring.  However, if its a first-time experience on a course, I'm probably more forgiving on this point, whereas if its my tenth experience, I'm not.  

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2003, 12:02:41 PM »
ZWal,

As a golf course architect, I'm interested to know what your instructor had as a "shot value chart" !

I've always said that if you want an embarrassing silence, you should go to a cocktail party of golf course architects and randomly ask "what is your definition of shot values?"  While we (and lots of golfers) throw the term around, its hard to define.

Cornish and the late Bob Graves asked some architects their definition in their book "Golf Course Design" and got some weak, or at least standard answers - "How well a course rewards or metes out punishment for good and bad shots" etc.

To answer your question, as a general rule, I expect good golfers typically look at how the course affects their game and score, and can be maddeningly oblivious to a course's other charms, whereas average golfers tend to focus on aesthetics and maintenance.

As to knowing what they hit, I have heard comments on my designs that "all par 3's required the same club" so good players do notice those types of things.

Are shot values being reduced through technology.  Mmm, you could argue they are, or simply that they are just changing.  The technology of irrigation and better balls took the run up option out of many equations years ago.  Now, new clubs and balls have taken the fade and draw away.  In the new Golf World, there is an article about how good players don't need to hit high or low to "cheat" or "ride" the wind on tee shots anymore.  The new drivers give them optimum launch angles, and the ball keeps flying, even into a headwind.  So, that "strategy" or shot value is now in a diminished state as well.

At the risk of appearing to shamelessly promote my own views, you could go to Cybergolf.com, under "Brauer's Book" where I answer questions from readers in random fashion.....

The "10 Commandments" of golf design is about as short a summary of shot values as I could come up with.

Come to think of it, this response will probably show up on Cyber golf next week, too.  I'm a few columns behind, and need an easy one to catch up, especially with Christmas approaching fast!

Hope this helps!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Dugger

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Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2003, 02:14:10 PM »
What stands out in my mind about shot values is the following:

Let's take a look at two sequences of three holes.  Each of the sequences consists of a par 3, 4 and 5.

1st sequence
 
par three of 230 yards (16th at Cypress)
par four of 320 yards (1st at Pac Dunes)
par five of 500 yards (13th at Augusta)

total yardage of 1050

2nd sequence

par three of 100 yards (10th at Pine Valley)
par four of 425 yards (8th at Pebble Beach)
par five of 550 yards (15th at PV)

total yardage of 1075

Looking at the two sequences you have roughly the same overall distance and the same exact par.  Yet, do the two different sequences call for the same exact shots?  Let's look

16th at Cypress-a driver for most players, if they want to go at the green.  The best driver of your life, or a safe lay up and a tricky pitch to save par.

1st at Pacific-a three wood safely into the fairway.  Not a super demanding shot.  Then a short pitch to the green.  A pretty easy hole overall.

13th at Augusta-choices.....hit a huge drive around the corner and go for the green in two or play it as a true three shotter.  One calls for a big curving drive and a long iron.  Another calls for maybe a three wood, six iron and a wedge.  

7th at Pebble-short hole, would think it would be easy.  Yet, it's an incredibly small target.  100 yards of knee shaking golf.

8th at Pebble-the arrowhead forces the player to hit two long shots.  Probably a three wood over the hill, but not too long!!  Then followed by another long iron across a massive amount of trouble into a small well guarded green.  A darn difficult hole!!

15th at PV-I think only John Daly has been NEAR the green in two shots.  It's a pure three shot par five with trouble around every tree.  Damn hard hole.

So, just because the yardage is the same does not mean that the shots the golfer is required to hit are the same.  I think I've shown that the 2nd sequence, while being only 25 yards longer, would be a much more challenging and difficult three holes.  
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2003, 09:08:44 PM »
M Dugger,

Basically, you are saying that choices and variety of shot types contributes to shot values.  I agree.  

Dr. Hurdzan shows, in his book, a chart from Stanley Thompson, showing the variety of approach shot lengths, in graph form.  It may be that this is the chart zwal refers to from his class.  Presumablly, Thompson would use it as a test during routing to better ensure the old "using every club in the bag bromide" was met.  But, shot value is more than a variety of distances on the approach shot.

So frankly, Thompson did some nice work, but his view, at least as reflected in that chart was fairly simplistic - make them hit different length approach shots, and hopefully, vary it, from short to long, rather than a series of long shots, for example.

Hurdzan goes on to say that at least part of shot value also lies in the required precision to be successful.  For approach shots, he starts with the USGA Slope Rating Chart for green sizes.  As a review, I'll say that it considers a "normal green" size to be 14% of the approach shot length in width, and 21% of approach shot length in length for 20 handicappers.  For scratch players, its about 14% both ways.  BTW, for Dave Pelz fans, this also correlates with his research nicely.

As a shamelessly rounded example, then, if the rating committee anticipated a 200 yard approach shot from a 20 handicapper the "average challenge" green, which they define as one that 2 out of every 3 20 handicap golfers will hit, the green "should be" 28 X 42 yards,  (84 X 126 feet) more or less, a 150 yarder 21 X 36 yards, and a 100 yarder, 14 X 21 yards.

But, as Mike points out, if every green was sized according to this formula, then each approach shot, regardless of length, would have exactly the same shot value, at least in terms of precision required.  If you had two effectively equal length holes (after accounting for wind, slope, etc.) then a variety of shot values would be better created by having one with a smaller green, and one with a larger green, no?

But shot value is more than the precision requirements, too.

As you suggest, shot options, shot pattern variety, hole type variety, wind direction and differing wind challenge, hazard difficulty, etc.  all contribute to shot value in some vague and hard to define way.  

Using 16 at Cyrpress, or 17 at TPC as examples, so does natural beauty, phycological difficulty and round position!   Those hole may affect shots on the front nine!

Of course, modern golfers would always add fair as a component of shot values, whatever that means!  In their view, the smaller than average green on a long approach is probably "poor shot value" but I don't think one or two of those per round to test iron play is such a bad idea.

Just my .02 :)

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A_Clay_Man

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2003, 09:26:57 PM »
I really enjoy the satisfaction I get from shot values I associate with the short game. Another way I like to feel a course has good shot values is the amount of concentration I need to focus inorder to pull off any nmumber of shots. This usually involves being creative and knowing the natural tendancy of the ball to react with the variables presented at that moment.

I really find it hard to believe that such a quantity can be figured on a chart or by using formulas to determine size. Maybe in two dimensions but clearly not three.

TEPaul

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2003, 08:00:12 AM »
Adam:

Fine point you make when you question the effectiveness of "shot value" charting in two dimensions (length and width=size) instead of three dimensions (the third being height or depth).

Eventually anyone should probably realize that using the three dimensions in golf architecture is just an obvious thing to do--a necessity actually--and probably something that doesn't need charting if done well and with a concsious effort.

But how the third dimension (height and depth) factors into the other two dimensions (length and width) surely does influence things in golf such as variety or even shot values.

With a little thought anyone can tell that with all three dimensions it's possible to create two 160 yard holes, for instance, where it would require any golfer to use vastly different clubs on the one vs the other. Or even to create a hole of 160 yards and another of 220 yards where most golfers would use the same club on the one as they would on the other! And all this only due to vast differences in the third dimenison only.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2003, 09:33:49 AM »
Throw-in the deception created by the 3rd dimension and you have an even more unquantifiable shot value. i.e. Let's use the 15th at Pebble as a model. Most people feel this hole is a let down. I prefer breather. But either way, I'd say this hole holds alot more than 'da folks' give it credit for. Specifically the approach (although the drive can be perplexing for some)  has a tendancy to play just slightly longer than the stated yardage. I am not sure if it is any elevation change that causes this as much as it usually plays into the unfelt wind, but for what ever reason, it does. Now, the shot value as your over the ball seems rather straight forward and almost easy. But, I can almost guarantee that after not carding a birdie (or hitting it close) alot of golfers are frustrated. I even had one guy go ballistic because he didn't wait for my words of wisdom (or my pin sheet, cause his was wrong) after he came up miserably short I told him he needed it 138 even though he was standing on the 133. Of course the irony is that putting up hill on this hole is the only place to miss it, which you will, if you don't know of the holes natural tendancy. So, I guess my point is, ignorance can often be bliss and charting shot values seems diametric to how this hack golfs. ;D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2003, 09:37:13 AM by A_Clay_Man »

Scratch_Nathan

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2003, 02:04:11 PM »
Couldn't shot value be defined in it's most general sense as follows?:

1.  Every golf shot presents a challenge, an assignment. A shot value is determined by the relationship between the relative challenge posed by the assignment and the degree to which a player is rewarded/punished by successfully/unsuccessfully hitting the target.  

I think the monkey wrench in any definition of shot value is the application of a magic word..."fairness"  If fairness is not part of the formula, then the world's toughest courses would automatically have the highest shot values.  Do impossibly difficult holes offer good shot values?  I don't think so.

Here's a shorter alternate definition for shot value:

2.  The importance of proper strategic decision making AND perfect execution relative to the successful outcome of a golf shot

I just pulled all this BS out of my keister, but I think both actually work.  They allows for (physical and mental/visual challenges) and offer the flexibility for any type of shot - high, low, left-to-right, right-to-left, etc.  

Would most of you agree that fairness would have to impact any measurement of shot value?  


Mark_Fine

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Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2003, 02:13:03 PM »
Shot values are one of the most subject topics in all of golf.  Statistics may argue otherwise, but I contend that they mean totally different things to different people.  

The slope system tries to make use of them, but I've been involved with slope rating courses (actually I was trained to do it just so I'd understand the process) and it is extremely subjective.  

Ask a slicer to critique a dog leg left hole with water on the right and then ask a golfer who draws the ball?  See what answers you get?  Same goes for a good bunker player vs. a poor one,... on and on.  

TEPaul

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2003, 02:35:14 PM »
There's probably no reason at all to try to parse the concept or the definition of "shot value" to death. First of all, although seemingly somewhat mysterious to some its definition just isn't all that complicated. I couldn't agree more with Cornish and Whitten's book which said about "shot value";

"Shot values is an important yet somewhat mysterious term. Golf architects Killian and Nugent have described it well as "a reflection of what the hole demands of the golfer and the relative reward or punishment it metes out for good and bad shots."

The definition or concept of shot value doesn't really need any more than that, in my opinion.

THuckaby2

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2003, 02:43:36 PM »
The slope system tries to make use of them, but I've been involved with slope rating courses (actually I was trained to do it just so I'd understand the process) and it is extremely subjective

Mark:  unless I misunderstand you, this is incorrect, and is actually a dangerous misconception.  There is no concept of "shot value" in the course rating manual, nor does it exist in the actual rating of courses by humans.  And in my experience in actually working on course ratings, I've found that there is VERY little subjectivity in these - basically all we do is correlate reality to the tables in the manual.

Care to explain this further, or do I just misunderstand you?

TH



Scratch_Nathan

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2003, 02:44:48 PM »
Tom -

"No reason to...define shot value to death"...

And then you provide another definition!!  

Well, now that you've tossed your trump card down, I guess I'll just log off and go do some work.  ;D

TEPaul

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2003, 05:14:06 PM »
Scratch:

I'm not tossing in another definition at all. As Jeff Brauer mentioned on an early post on this thread that's the exact definition from Killian and Nugent commonly used to define shot value for years. It serves the purpose just fine. Over defining things gets out of control sometimes these days like Clinton redefining "is" or even what "sex" is and isn't. It gets ridiculous after a while.

Scratch_Nathan

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2003, 05:48:36 PM »
TEP -

I swear I see a definition in your post, really I do! ;D

...And it's really minimally different than the definitions written in my post and a couple of others.  So why throw the extra redundant Killian/Nugent log on the fire right after you suggest other posters to refrain from further definition antics?

Forgive me, I'm a little salty right now perhaps because I'm about to start my blizzard commute home.  Your post just seemed a little hypocritical and out of character.  Why tell other folks to quit their reindeer games and then feed Blitzen another old carrot.   ??? ;D

Scratch_Nathan

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2003, 05:51:17 PM »
Shivas -

Methinks it is an amusing exercise to try to define the truly undefinable.  


TEPaul

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2003, 06:58:47 PM »
Scratch:

I guess I quoted that definition from C&W's book because I think it's a good one and I didn't read every post enough before I posted mine to see that others may have said the same thing I did. What I thought I saw was some definitions from some that seemed to be getting a little too far out there. If that's hypocritical---sorry about that. I'd say using basically the same definition as others may have before me was probably just redundant on my part.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2003, 07:18:47 PM »
I'd be curious to know if there are other earlier definitions or an earlier use of the term. Mostly because it sounds like a modern day almost marketing term. Plus, growing up on some Killian and Nugent, I don't know how innovative they were or if they ever created anything close to original. I am not slamming as much as I'm saying in retrospect their courses seemed pedestrian.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2003, 07:56:27 PM »
TEPaul,
Shot values- a reflection of what the hole demands of the golfer and the relative reward or punishment it metes out for good and bad shots.

This is a totally adequate statement. After all, it is a definiton and a definition, by definiton(sorry), is "a statement expressing the essential nature of something." Definitions are not meant to be a treatise on the subject.

In the case of 'shot values' there are a large number of permutations, illustrations and formulas that make up the subject matter. The formulas have grounding and follow certain principles but it's the permutations of individual golf situations and the attempts at illustrating them that will forever be the subject of debate.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2003, 08:40:11 PM »
I don't know this for a fact but it wouldn't surprise me if that description or definition by Killian and Nugent of shot value wasn't run through Geoffrey Cornish's well known course on golf architecture at Harvard University (not that that gives it any edge on any other definition of shot value).

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2003, 09:01:16 PM »
TEPaul,

I do know this for a fact - Killian and Nugent had one of their "Young Bucks" author a "Design Philosophy Statement" somewhere around 1980.  He was responsible for that, and he is me!

However, I heard it from Dick Nugent, don't think it was original to him, and was never satisfied with it. Why?  Once you accept that statement, then the next natural question is "How do you design the course to do that?"  So, as a previous poster mentioned, that may be a defintion, but it is not a detailed explanation, and to my thinking, it isn't deep enough.

I have tried over the years to come up with a definitive statement of shot values, and can't, even recognizing that any other architect, hell, any other golfer, would take exception to lots of it - especially the parts that don't fit their game!  That - and the intuitive nature of design - is why I think most authors, from Thomas to Nicklaus basically define it with specific examples of design ideas.

Still, the old proverb, "If you don't know where you're going, any plane will do" (either I've updated that, or the ancient Chinese anticipated airplanes.....) means an architect should be able to explicitly and succinctly explain such things as "why I put that bunker there" and why it is the depth it is.  Granted, it can be any depth, but if the designer really, really (insert your own number of really's here) thought about the bunker in design, he would make it a certain depth, knowing that a one foot deep bunker produces different shot values ( including mental ones like fear, or lack thereof) than a 10 foot deep one.

Speaking of deep, well its getting just a bit deep on this post, don't you think?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2003, 09:54:35 PM »
"TEPaul,
I do know this for a fact - Killian and Nugent had one of their "Young Bucks" author a "Design Philosophy Statement" somewhere around 1980.  He was responsible for that, and he is me!"

Jeff:

Are you saying you're the one who came up with that definition that I quoted out of Cornish and Whitten's book? If so I'm impressed---that definition is all I need to know about what shot value means--I think that definition is excellent.

As for being more specific and detailed about shot value and such--I don't know--I think in the end golf and golf architecture may be just too undefinable for that---

you know what they say,...

"Golf and it's architecture is a great big world and......"


stovepipe

Re:Shot Value and the game of Golf
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2003, 10:26:41 PM »
Its nice to hear from you Z, welcome to the club.

When you decide to reply, can you tell me the answer to this q, I am curious to know what the modern day thinking is on g.c design.

Its seems to me that all thay want to do is to add yards on to the track, is this still the way to go? Why.

Surely, its better if thay were to trick the tracks up more, as club & ball design seems to be slowing down, due to new rules & regs, (boo!) Im just not convinced we need to lengthen our tracks & hybrids.

Convince me otherwise, as i cant see the old boys making par, on 650 yard par 5s, the poor old boys would be out there all day, and all thay want to do is get back and have a few stiff ones. :)    Stovey  :P