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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Opening hole - hardest?
« on: May 05, 2023, 06:47:28 AM »
With more than a half century traipsing around seeing golf courses I ran into something I've seen only one other time - the #1 handicap hole as hole #1.  It was at the South Course at Lake Jovita in central FL.  As far as I can recall the only other time I've seen this was years ago playing Toftrees at Penn State.  Kinda goes in the face of the "gentle handshake" approach of the Mackenzies and Rosses.


Any others you know of?

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2023, 07:09:10 AM »
Knollwood GC, Granada Hills, CA hole 1, 430 yds, #1 hdcp came to mind. All uphill, ob driving range right in play,  well trapped green. Tough hole but teamed with a reachable par 5 no.2 on a busy course makes for a slow long round. Side note the course was originally a country club owned by Dean Martin with a mansion to the right of the first green with a graphic nude statue in the back yard by the Hollywood pool. 8)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2023, 07:13:42 AM »
The one that immediately comes to mind is Jeffersonville, where the First is the No. 2 handicap hole but is the toughest hole on the entire course IMO.  It is a Ross design as well. 



archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2023, 08:07:27 AM »
 8)


The first at Pine Valley can be really hard, particularly if they put the pin back or on the right side of the green .  You can make 5 pretty easy but three or four requires some excellent shot making and putting

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2023, 08:13:11 AM »
JC,


Hackensack Golf Club.  I played it with you two years ago and I think you made the same comment. :)


Bret

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2023, 08:37:38 AM »
#1 at Spyglass Hill comes to mind. 

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2023, 08:40:45 AM »

Chris Mavros,

The first at Jeffersonville was changed sometime in the 1950s or 60s, I believe, lengthened to it's current configuration with the green pushed back maybe 50 yards.   Apparently Ross's version was tamer.

**EDIT** - Chris, looking at Historic Aerials, it seems the change took place sometime in the 60s or early 70s.   The green used to be just beyond the set of bunkers on the right at the top of the hill, and was eventually extended for what seems about 100 yards.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 08:58:11 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2023, 09:03:33 AM »
RTJ's opening hole at Stone Mountain outside Atlanta is by far the hardest on that course. The drive feels like the 11th at Ballybunion, but with a wall of tall Georgia pines on either side of the fairway and a hard cant from left to right.

Very nervy tee shot for your first of the day. Fortunately the second hole is a short birdie-able par 4, as you will most likely be +1 after the first.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2023, 09:13:28 AM »
The first hole at Crystal Downs is probably the second hardest hole on the course [behind the 13th].  It's a beast; I'm rarely trying to hit the green with my second shot, instead playing short and left so I leave myself a chance to get up and down for 4.


Generally, though, even if the first hole is the hardest it won't be handicapped that way.  My rule of thumb is that the finishing hole shouldn't be one of the main stroke holes because matches might not get to the 18th, and that everyone is subject to a shaky start so the opening hole shouldn't be a stroke hole that often, either.

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2023, 09:32:21 AM »
The one that immediately comes to mind is Jeffersonville, where the First is the No. 2 handicap hole but is the toughest hole on the entire course IMO.  It is a Ross design as well.




With current construction of the new clubhouse, 17 is now the starting hole, which is the #1 handicap.


Starting your round with 17, 18, and 1 as your 1st three is brutal!

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2023, 09:38:16 AM »

Chris Mavros,

The first at Jeffersonville was changed sometime in the 1950s or 60s, I believe, lengthened to it's current configuration with the green pushed back maybe 50 yards.   Apparently Ross's version was tamer.

**EDIT** - Chris, looking at Historic Aerials, it seems the change took place sometime in the 60s or early 70s.   The green used to be just beyond the set of bunkers on the right at the top of the hill, and was eventually extended for what seems about 100 yards.


Thanks, Mike; good to know!!  Makes a lot more sense it was revised post Ross. 


Mike Blake: Oh wow, I didn't realize they were changing the routing along with the new clubhouse.  Indeed, that will set up for a very stiff opening sequence! 

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2023, 09:49:46 AM »
The course I grew up on, Chapel Hills outside of Atlanta, features its hardest hole as the opener.  The course tips out at less than 6,600 yards, but hole 1 is a 458 yard par 4.  The next longest par 4 on the course over 50 yards shorter.


-Keith

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2023, 09:56:00 AM »
Mike Blake: Oh wow, I didn't realize they were changing the routing along with the new clubhouse.  Indeed, that will set up for a very stiff opening sequence!


I ‘think’ (hope) it’s just temporary during construction.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2023, 10:42:24 AM »
JC,


Hackensack Golf Club.  I played it with you two years ago and I think you made the same comment. :)


Bret


At least I'm consistent!  Thanks Bret.  JC

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2023, 10:50:15 AM »
   The USGA has a new recommendation suggesting that the number one stoke hole should fall in the middle three holes of each nine. My course is complying, and it’s stupid. The new #1 stroke hole is #5, which used to be the #9 stroke hole.
   

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2023, 10:50:34 AM »
It'll be a great day for amateur golf when people stop conflating the allocation of handicap strokes on the scorecard to hole difficulty.

Talamore in Philadelphia has the first stroke hole as the opener. But it's not the most difficult hole on that golf course. I don't agree with the OP that the first at Lake Jovita South (which I've played once) is the most difficult hole NOR do I agree that the first at Toftrees (which I've played many times) is the most difficult hole at Toftrees.

Despite their stroke allocations.


The Jeffersonville selection is an interesting one, and like many of these conversations, perhaps says more about the player than the hole. There's a line to take from the appropriate tee that cuts off significant distance. It's never been the most difficult hole there to me (8, 11, 13, 17 are all better candidates) though a golfer can make it difficult.

And that's sort of the crux, to me, of this conversation. Stroke allocation is as much about where the bogey golfer needs TWO strokes against the scratch, if not more, than where the 1-handicap needs a stroke against the scratch. The first situation likely involves a penalty stroke while the second situation likely involves a difficult putting green.

Difficulty tends to boil down to two things: Possibility of a HUGE number v. difficulty in making par or better.

Let's call that the "Tobacco Road Assumption."

Now that I've stalled for more than enough words I'll nominate my candidate:



http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2023, 12:10:35 PM »
#1 at Tilden Park immediately comes to mind. Absolute monster of an opening hole. This conversation really make me think whether having a warm up range effects the architecture. I've always taken the firm handshake principle to simply mean give people a warm up hole.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 01:27:19 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2023, 12:31:11 PM »
Matt,

There is a lot of discussion about Tilden #1 here, which could be a double winner as most difficult and awful!  ;D

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71771.0.html

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2023, 01:13:59 PM »
There is a lot of discussion about Tilden #1 here, which could be a double winner as most difficult and awful!  ;D

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71771.0.html
I have not played there in 25-30 years, but yes, #1 at Tilden immediately came to mind. #1 at Lincoln Park is a bit of an uphill stinker as well.
Good stuff! In this discussion, someone pans #1 at Lincoln Park, which I actually hold as one of my favorite strategic hole in the region. Challenging yes, but with a bit of thought, players can have a fairly reasonable, conservative route to the hole by playing along the OB on the opening shot, and then playing across the green to improve their chances of holding it. I can reach the green with two irons. It just seems like an instance of many players seeing overhanging/obstructing trees as a nuance, rather than as an obstacle that should inform strategy.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2023, 02:12:53 PM »
The first hole at Crystal Downs is probably the second hardest hole on the course [behind the 13th].  It's a beast; I'm rarely trying to hit the green with my second shot, instead playing short and left so I leave myself a chance to get up and down for 4.


Generally, though, even if the first hole is the hardest it won't be handicapped that way.  My rule of thumb is that the finishing hole shouldn't be one of the main stroke holes because matches might not get to the 18th, and that everyone is subject to a shaky start so the opening hole shouldn't be a stroke hole that often, either.


Tom, intended or not No. 1 at Riverfront is the number 3 stroke hole
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2023, 02:17:33 PM »
It'll be a great day for amateur golf when people stop conflating the allocation of handicap strokes on the scorecard to hole difficulty.

I guess it depends on what you mean by this.  My understanding is that the primary consideration for stroke allocation is now just difficulty, not relative difficulty between low and high handicap golfers (the old approach).  So the starting point is just pure difficulty for all golfers.  But then there can be certain adjustments, like splitting the allocation across nines (even though that wouldn't track a pure difficulty ranking), and trying to have the 1 and 2 handicap holes in the middle of the 9's. 


At least that's how I understand the World Golf Handicap system.

Jim O’Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2023, 02:42:59 PM »
RTJ's opening hole at Stone Mountain outside Atlanta is by far the hardest on that course. The drive feels like the 11th at Ballybunion, but with a wall of tall Georgia pines on either side of the fairway and a hard cant from left to right.

Very nervy tee shot for your first of the day. Fortunately the second hole is a short birdie-able par 4, as you will most likely be +1 after the first.
Good call on naming that hole at Stonemont. In the summer and fall, any drive starting down the middle will end up in the far right rough and down the hill. If I recall, there are trees down there in the right rough in sort of a gully, which is essentially jail.

You basically have to hug the PineTree line in the left rough to have any chance at catching the right side of the fairway, then you have a steep uphill, long 2nd that can play as many 2 or 3 clubs if the fanbelt is cranking.

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2023, 03:28:07 PM »
I'll go with # 1 at Chicago Golf Club.  Not a gentle handshake at all!  ;D

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2023, 04:05:50 PM »
Oak Lane Country Club is a 1961 Geoffrey Cornish design in Woodbridge, Connecticut. The opener from the back tee is a 570 yard par five that is worthy of its rating.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Opening hole - hardest?
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2023, 04:23:19 PM »
Ben Hogan said it was the first on Oak Hill East
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 09:28:00 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett