The Easiest Great Course in the World

[Darren_Kilfara]

For the longest time, I've thought the Old Course to be the likely champion in this category. While it is UNQUESTIONABLY a great golf course, its fairways are wide, its greens are huge, and on a windless day it truly is there for the taking if you can avoid the bunkers.

Then I played Royal Melbourne (West), and now I'm not so sure. RM's fairways are wide and lack significant internal movement, its greens are huge and hardly over-contoured, it doesn't strangle you with water hazards or forced carries, and it has four reachable par 5s which don't severely penalize your misses. I don't think it's quite as great as the Old Course, but it's definitely a Doak 9 on my personal scale, and I feel as though in normal conditions, all you really need are good lag putting skills to stand a chance of posting a very good score.

Any other nominees (or secondings) for this category?

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Never been to RM (sadly, some day.....) but I'd have to second The Old Course for this.  Avoid the bunkers and it is there for the taking... of course find a bunker and one's round can be ruined in one hole... so it is problematic.  But when we played there recently, several of our 12 had their career-best scores, which didn't come close to happening anywhere else in Scotland, save North Berwick... which also might get a nod in this category....

Can't think of any in the US that would fit.... MAYBE Pacific Dunes on a windless day, but even that's a stretch... one still has to golf one's ball quite well to score well there...

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

How tough is Maidstone?  It's short, but it has ever-persent wind.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Good choice, Shivas.  Also short.

[ForkaB]

I'll vote for Cypress Point.

PS--I don't think TOC would qualify for this "honor" if one played it from the Open tees (i.e. 7300 yards).

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

I hate to say it because sometimes easy is seen as a slam, which is not true in this case because I absolutely loved the place, but I would say Royal Dornoch.  

[THuckaby2]

Rich:

With all due respect, love and admiration, you have lost your mind.  Cypress Point the "easiest"?  For whom?  It is possible to achieve a good score there, but there is SO much more trouble than the others mentioned, making double bogey or worse possible on just about every hole... and the temptations for risk-taking just add to this... well... the famous example used in here is Lou Duran's great round where he got it to -4... the proof of the pudding is that he did not FINISH under par...

It is relatively short, compared to other great courses, and would be listed on the easy side when these were all set out - I'll grant you that.  But EASIEST?  No way.  Give me ten 15 handicapppers and let them play CP and The Old Course, I'd bet you anything 9 out of 10 achieve a lower score on the latter.  Same goes for pros...

And visitors aren't allowed to play the Open tees at The Old Course.  But yes, push back to there and it is a different answer.  I'd still take most of my 15 'cappers to do better at The Old Course than CP, but then again, they are playing a course about 800 yards shorter in California...

TH

[David_Elvins]

and on a windless day..........under normal conditions

Dont confuse the two.  

Are you saying that windless days on the Old course and Royal Melbourne  are normal conditions?  

Of course inlands courses will play harder on still days because no allowance neesds to be made in their design for the fact that the course needs to be played in the severest of winds.

If Royal Melbourne had soft fairways and greens that stimpesd at eight, the courswe would be a push over.  But the fact is, this happens once in a blue moon, which is slightly less than the course playing without wind.  I think that you need to reassess your notion of "normal conditions".

[ForkaB]

Tom

I played with Lou that famous day.

If you remind yourself that CPC is just a golf course and not some sort of frigging Sistine Chapel, it can be had.  As Lou and I can attest to.

Of course, Kelly is right, too, about Dornoch.  It can be had, but not quite as easily as Cypress, IMHO.  Of course, you realise that, too, Huckster, n'est-ce pas?

[Darren_Kilfara]

David, the Royal Melbourne I played had soft greens and stimped at about 9-10. (There was a 10-15 mph breeze.) I'm told that other conditions often exist during the summertime, but just as I shouldn't confuse "normal" and "windless", I suppose you yourself shouldn't confuse "normal" and "optimal". (I'm trying to focus upon "normal" - or "median", if you prefer - conditions and not any variation thereof.)

I think Cypress Point can be more easily had than Royal Dornoch, although I've played the latter a few more times than I have the former.

Would NGLA qualify, for those who have played it?

Cheers,
Darren

[Dan Kelly]

Is North Berwick a "great" course?

Is is easier than Cypress Point and Royal Dornoch?

Just askin'.

[THuckaby2]

Every course can be had.  And I am not as awed as you like to jibe me from time to time.  I have played a few other places besides the Sistine Chapel of Golf.  

You're just wrong in saying that Cypress is the easiest great course, that's all.  Yes, a good score can be achieved there, but as you saw with Lou, getting it in the house isn't so simply done.

In any case, yes, I'd put Dornoch in this category as well... it requires wind, or awful pin positions, to really show its teeth.  But that can be said for nearly every links course, can't it?

To me CPC just has far more chances for really bad scores than do other courses we'd discuss in this category, so I find it hard to call it the easiest.  Relatively easy, compared to other great courses?  Sure.  Easiest.  No way.

Comprendo?

TH

[THuckaby2]

Dan K:

Yes, I'd call North Berwick West Links a great course.  But others might not.

And I'd say it is easier to score on than either CPC or Dornoch, by a fair measure.  

Darren:

I'd say yes, NGLA would qualify at least to fit into this discussion.  VERY fun but quite a fair bit easier to score on than its next-door neighbor, for example...

[ForkaB]

Tomasino

Comprende, compadre, but no agreeo!

Dano

I think NB is nearly "great", but not quite, and as for difficulty, I think it is much easier to shoot 75 there, but just as difficult to shoot 70 and much more "difficult" to go over 85 vs. Dornoch or Cypress.

[ForkaB]

PS.....

I was thinking of nominating NGLA, but the only time I (and the Huckster) played it was in very soft and slow conditions.  I saw enough of the contours and the design to think that it would not be a particularly "easy" course if set up fast and firm.

[THuckaby2]

Dano:

Mucho perfecto para mi!  And mi mucho agreeo re NGLA-o.  Firm and fast would make that play not so easy-o.  Well said.

Overall, I guess what this comes down to is what we mean by easiest.  That is, easiest to go really low? Easiest to avoid a really high score?  Easiest for pros?  Easiest for average golfers?

You're likely to get different answers based on each of these.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

RivieraC.C., Pacific Palisades, CA.

[Mike Benham]

I will make a nomination that Huck and Shivas won't agree on ...

Peter Jans ...  

[A_Clay_Man]

....Other than the greatest course within a hundred yards of a Bahai Temple.

I'd bet some of our actuarial pedantics can come up with the lowest stroke average on the highest ranked courses by the favored publications of the modern era. As a dial-up I refuse to try.

[Mike Benham]

I hereby suggest that Mike B should be hereinafter banned for life for nominating Jans National for inclusion in ANY "greatest" catergory.  

Aw come on Shiv, the passion of your prior posts obviously mean that Perter Jans has a soft spot in your heart, greatness is in the eyes of the beholder ...

[TEPaul]

Rich:

NGLA isn't even close to the easiest if it's set up for tournament play and it's greens are firm and quick. I'd say it really doesn't make a huge difference at NGLA if the course "through the green" is fast and firm or soft. Probably a bit harder if fast "through the green" though due to holes like #12, 14, 15, 16. But when the greens are firm and quick both approaching, recovering and putting there is a different world. Too many of the greens have so much contour and sectioning to them.

I agree with Scott Burroughs--I might nominate Maidstone without the wind as the easiest I know. But like all good courses even at Maidstone without wind you have to keep the ball where you're supposed to or you can go for big numbers on almost all the holes even without a breath of wind.

[SPDB]

On an absolute basis
maidstone
the creek

Relative to its reputation
Pine Valley

[ForkaB]

Tom

I think I was saying the same thing about NGLA, even though I am ignorant as to how it plays when firm and fast.

You make a good point re: Maidstone in that I agree that all really great courses (including the ones I have mentioned above) can cause big numbers if you just slip up a little bit on the day--particularly if the course has been set up to allow for the punishment of minor miscalculations.

[Mike Hendren]

I am hard pressed to call North Berwick's West Links "great."  
Regardless, I have never played another course that was more likeable - no, make that lovable.   I am smitten by it, as evidenced by the fact that  my Visiting Golfers Insurance Certificate remains in my wallet.   I become physically ill when thinking about how long it will be before I return there.  I am verclempt as I type these words

It must be easy since I was only one over through thirteen with a lipped out three footer at the easy 6th.  Doubles at Perfection and Redan were the equalizer.  

Regards,

Mike

[THuckaby2]

See why the world hates lawyers?  They're insufferable when they're right.  

So yes, a perusal of the course ratings would solve this issue...

Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, the heathens overseas don't follow the infallible USGA system. So we will just never know how CPC compares to The Old Course...

But just for kicks, here are CPC's numbers:

Men
Blue     72            72.4            136            6536
White   72            71.3            132            6332

Rating over par, at 6536... that doesn't sound that easy to me... as I said way up above, I'm sure CPC does fall on the easy side when it comes to great courses... but easiest?  I still don't buy that.

TH