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Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Proposed changes to Baltray
« on: April 24, 2023, 12:55:00 PM »
https://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2023/4/15/g9ev2k4of4ymjqsbfkh0dge1xizb28


I don't know the course well enough to comment further.


WI won't even point out the bleedin' obvious. Yawn.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2023, 01:08:02 PM »
https://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2023/4/15/g9ev2k4of4ymjqsbfkh0dge1xizb28


I don't know the course well enough to comment further.


WI won't even point out the bleedin' obvious. Yawn.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2023, 04:22:12 PM »
Baltray is one of the 5 or 6 best courses in Ireland. Tom Simpson is the architect who has most inspired me. Invite the devil to dance….


EDIT: Just looked at the plans in detail. The suggestions make sense in part but not convinced at all by the new par-3.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 06:25:50 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2023, 03:22:49 AM »
I remember playing Baltray a while back and the 17th had 2 greens the older one which was a longer hole and a 'new' one by Philip Spogard.


Surely they could have moved the car park rather than a hole the existing 10th was an interesting tee shot.


Regarding the new 12th am a bit concerned about the safety margins from the 13th back tees.


Baltray for me had interesting angles from the tees and it looks like a number of them are being straightened  :o

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2023, 04:22:42 AM »
In fairness, Ben, by flipping the tee positions of the 1st and 10th, they are returning those holes to approximately what Simpson originally had (albeit in a different sequencing). But it does straighten up both of them.


I have the same concern on the new par-3 but aside from appearing a little squeezed in and manufactured, it also has a couple of other downsides, notably that it straightens up the old 12th (one of the course highlights) and that it will involve a walk up a dune to tees, just to come straight back down again. This is becoming a bit of an Ebert staple. Hopefully not too bad in this case.


At least it appears that this is the only green they are touching. But to be brutally honest, I don’t trust that it will stop here.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2023, 05:00:43 AM »
In fairness, Ben, by flipping the tee positions of the 1st and 10th, they are returning those holes to approximately what Simpson originally had (albeit in a different sequencing). But it does straighten up both of them.


I have the same concern on the new par-3 but aside from appearing a little squeezed in and manufactured, it also has a couple of other downsides, notably that it straightens up the old 12th (one of the course highlights) and that it will involve a walk up a dune to tees, just to come straight back down again. This is becoming a bit of an Ebert staple. Hopefully not too bad in this case.


At least it appears that this is the only green they are touching. But to be brutally honest, I don’t trust that it will stop here.


Thanks Ally for clarifying the 1st and 10th - Are there any older plans of the course by Simpson so that we can see what it was.

Lots of golf courses seem to be neutralising their course playability wise so that it is fairer or from a safety point of view as well as improving the aesthetic look with waste areas and more clearly defined bunkers

Is this HOMOGENISATION of our links courses by using the same company who are very successful/have strong marketing tool rather than varying it. I can name Goswick, Gullane, Baltray, Portrush, Princes, The Island and so on.....


« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 05:03:23 AM by Ben Stephens »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2023, 05:34:05 AM »
Not a huge amount has changed from the Simpson course other than the sequencing, flipping those tees (to help the new sequence) and usual bunker and aesthetic mods.


Old Simpson routing (changed in early 80’s) was


1. Was current 4
2. 5
3. 6
4. 7
5. 8
6. 9
7. 1
8. 2
9. 3


10. 11
11. 12
12. 13
13. 14
14. 15
15. 16
16. 17
17. 18
18. 10

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2023, 06:05:47 AM »
Hi Ally,




Thats very interesting - it makes sense that 10 is the finish hole the view from the clubhouse would be better. Makes me think whether there was an another clubhouse originally nearer the 10th green.


Its a pity that M+E didnt revert to the Old Simpson routing which feels better from ebb and flow standpoint. There could be a reason why these proposals - could be outside influence other than M+E to request for them.




Cheers
Ben
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 08:09:56 AM by Ben Stephens »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2023, 09:49:33 AM »
Seems like it would have been much simpler to try out widening the 10th fairway where the line of play doesn't have to be towards the clubhouse and parking lot.

Eagerly waiting to see where the new faux dunes get added.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2023, 10:02:21 AM »
Hopefully they can get the symetrical dunes and round pot bunkers in the most fair places,
and nail the monostand grass look.
Heavy sigh...


Always loved Baltray, but once it became "unhidden" in the last 20 years, it sort've slipped off my radar as a destination when it's quality and location pushed its green fee to a point where other destinations became far better value.
I'm sure this latest development won't improve that calculation.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Clyde Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2023, 04:21:20 PM »
Not a huge amount has changed from the Simpson course other than the sequencing, flipping those tees (to help the new sequence) and usual bunker and aesthetic mods.


Old Simpson routing (changed in early 80’s) was


1. Was current 4
2. 5
3. 6
4. 7
5. 8
6. 9
7. 1
8. 2
9. 3


10. 11
11. 12
12. 13
13. 14
14. 15
15. 16
16. 17
17. 18
18. 10


That must have been the best opening hole in links golf!?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2023, 04:46:34 PM »
Definitely Clyde - one of my absolute favourite holes and in the middle of a great stretch (3 to 7).


Ben - I suspect the proposed Ebert sequence is partially to get rid of the spaghetti junction of crossovers that house 2 to 3, 8 to 9 and 11 to 12. In that sense it works quite well. But I’m not convinced by going down 11 to come straight back up 3 and I’m fed up with this obsession with finding any spare piece of land as an excuse to build a new par-3.

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2023, 05:10:53 PM »
Definitely Clyde - one of my absolute favourite holes and in the middle of a great stretch (3 to 7).


Ben - I suspect the proposed Ebert sequence is partially to get rid of the spaghetti junction of crossovers that house 2 to 3, 8 to 9 and 11 to 12. In that sense it works quite well. But I’m not convinced by going down 11 to come straight back up 3 and I’m fed up with this obsession with finding any spare piece of land as an excuse to build a new par-3.


If the problem they were trying to solve was to keep drives on the 10th out of the car park, why not just move the 10th fairway to the left?


Aren't the other changes really a solution looking for a problem?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2023, 05:31:25 PM »
Yes, 10 is a dog's dinner. Truth be told, 9-11 isn't an elegant stretch of the course. If we are being honest 18 isn't a good hole either. No place is perfect.

Still, I am much more interested in attacking the very hit and miss bunker scheme.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 08:54:31 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2023, 05:56:15 PM »
9 is an excellent hole.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2023, 06:09:11 PM »
Seems like it would have been much simpler to try out widening the 10th fairway where the line of play doesn't have to be towards the clubhouse and parking lot.

Eagerly waiting to see where the new faux dunes get added.
I agree, it seemed like there was a ton of room on the left on 10 and the only reason it was a slight dogleg left was that is just how they decided to mow it.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2023, 08:59:14 PM »
9 is an excellent hole.

Good green. Really interesting rear bunkers. Drive into amphitheatre of bunkers then the fairway narrows drastically for some reason. It's a solid hole.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 02:13:13 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2023, 01:47:03 AM »
9 is an excellent hole.

Good green. Really interesting rear bunkers. Drive into amphitheatre if bunkers then the fairway narrows drastically for some reason. It's a solid hole.

Ciao


Good ridge before the green with approach bunker. Add all that together and it is very worthy.


As I’ve repeated oft-times before, Baltray has two of the best stretches of links holes anywhere (3 to 7 and 12 to 16). It is a superb golf course, one of the best.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2023, 05:34:07 AM »


Still, I am much more interested in attacking the very hit and miss bunker scheme.

Ciao


Sean


What makes the bunkering hit and miss, and what could they do to improve it ?


Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2023, 08:08:59 AM »

Ben - I suspect the proposed Ebert sequence is partially to get rid of the spaghetti junction of crossovers that house 2 to 3, 8 to 9 and 11 to 12. In that sense it works quite well. But I’m not convinced by going down 11 to come straight back up 3 and I’m fed up with this obsession with finding any spare piece of land as an excuse to build a new par-3.


Why could they not consider reverting to the original Simpson sequencing of holes?  What was wrong that had to be changed?


Maybe they are adding a par-3 so they could correct Simpson and get the short holes going in four different compass directions.  ;) :D   I'm sure Ben would be on board with that.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2023, 08:16:07 AM »

Is this HOMOGENISATION of our links courses by using the same company who are very successful/have strong marketing tool rather than varying it. I can name Goswick, Gullane, Baltray, Portrush, Princes, The Island and so on.....


To me, it's not so much WHO does the work as WHY.  There is no question that those guys are very popular and that they do a great job of drawing up master plans and selling them to memberships.  The problem is whether that creates a need to "feed the beast" and suggest changes for the sake of change, in order to keep paying those young people in the office to prepare videos and booklets.


Of course, "unnecessary" is a matter of opinion, too, I suppose.  The safety angle is a page from Martin Hawtree's old book . . . once you have identified a safety problem on the record, the club is pretty much obliged to do something about it.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2023, 08:35:46 AM »
Tom


Do you not think that a GCA advising on possible changes to a course has an obligation to advise the club of any obvious safety issues identified, even if not expressly part of the brief ?


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2023, 08:57:06 AM »

Ben - I suspect the proposed Ebert sequence is partially to get rid of the spaghetti junction of crossovers that house 2 to 3, 8 to 9 and 11 to 12. In that sense it works quite well. But I’m not convinced by going down 11 to come straight back up 3 and I’m fed up with this obsession with finding any spare piece of land as an excuse to build a new par-3.


Why could they not consider reverting to the original Simpson sequencing of holes?  What was wrong that had to be changed?


Maybe they are adding a par-3 so they could correct Simpson and get the short holes going in four different compass directions.  ;) :D   I'm sure Ben would be on board with that.


Tom,


I had heard that the sequence changed when the clubhouse position moved. But I've found no record of the supposed original clubhouse position, nor has any member I've talked to heard of it. There was definitely no sign of it in the 60's and the sequence wasn't changed until the 80's. Even with the current clubhouse, the old 18th green (current 10th) is closer than the present 18th (old 17th).


The original sequence had the same junction of three crossovers. Potentially it could have felt more natural in Simpson's time and new back tees have made it felt busier but I doubt that would have had much impact. I have never had a problem with those crossovers whatsoever. Always obvious where to walk.


I know you were being tongue-in-cheek but they can't even pull the orientation card out of their deck; because the new par-3 points the same way as two of the existing ones, meaning three from four will now face south.


Niall: There are two problems with "safety":


1. There is - deliberately - no definitive way of measuring what is unsafe versus what is safe. It is easy to fall on either side of the fence with many examples.


2. There are a lot of older courses with areas that are easy to call unsafe by modern standards that were not deemed unsafe 100 years ago. These areas have generally proven to have no problems but just don't meet the modern (unwritten) safety gaps and buffers. As soon as you do work in that area (or even comment on it), you have to judge it by modern standards. If a club is looking to work in an area, I may recommend against it if modern safety standards are awkward to meet (unless safety was the driver for the work). All safety discussions I firstly do off the record so we can consider together what is best. I will only put something in writing if I genuinely believe there is danger to golfers or the public. But you'll find that the clubs themselves know better than I do where they have been encountering problems. If I was asked to do a formal "safety audit" across whole courses, I'd be recommending making multiple changes to almost all the best links courses in the country. The majority of those changes would be - in my opinion - unnecessary.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 10:29:01 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2023, 09:05:53 AM »
Ally,


Have you played The Island Club since the changes? Based on our one play, I didn't see a compelling reason to take away the eight Par 4s in a row on the front, but it of course is up to the members. I just hope that the changes were positive.


Thanks.


Ira

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proposed changes to Baltray
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2023, 09:25:29 AM »
Ally,


Have you played The Island Club since the changes? Based on our one play, I didn't see a compelling reason to take away the eight Par 4s in a row on the front, but it of course is up to the members. I just hope that the changes were positive.


Thanks.


Ira


The Island is now more setup for the big championships I guess they crave. But the new 8th and 9th are slightly boring and very over-engineered / constructed long par-4's. Individuality has certainly been lost. That's not to say the original holes were great (although I do think the old 7th was) but they could have at least used some of the original landforms to create interest in the new holes. Definitely they have got rid of a pinch-point for infrastructure and spectators though.