Tree liability

[Mike_Young]

I was with a timber man this weekend and he was explaining to me that the pine trees such as we saw fall at ANGC are reaching the end of their expected lifespans.  Clubs that were built 100-85 years ago can expect trees to start to fall.  Also as people thin pine trees that become more vulnerable to the wind.  I recall a few years ago when there was a terrible accident in Nashville that killed two golfers in a golf car during high winds.  A caddy was killed by a falling tree limb in SC a few years ago and a few golf course employees have been killed over the years. 
Clubs take lightning seriously but rarely do you see clubs closed for wind. I expect to things start to happen to protect clubs as well as fans and golfers.  Going to get interesting....

[David_Tepper]

The pine and Cypress trees lining the fairways of many of the SF Bay Area courses are reaching the end their 85-100 year life span. The very rainy, very windy weather we experienced here this past winter brought many of those trees down. The Olympic Club lost over 100 trees. The courses at Olympic were closed on a number of days due to concerns about trees tipping over or branches breaking and falling.

While it did not happen on a golf course, sadly a good friend of mine, someone I had known for almost 50 years, was killed a month ago by a falling tree while riding in a car.     

[mike_beene]

I was at Preston Trail during the Nelson in the early 70s when a tree cracked and fell on a spectator killing him. Wasn’t windy. I was up on the 5th tee and heard it back on 4.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:


If you hadn't noticed, there are lots of clubs taking out trees for lots of reasons.


Two stories from my consulting days:


1.  At SFGC, I mentioned years ago that the pines and cypress were all the same age, and they were all going to die around the same time, unless they started taking out one section at a time and replacing them [or not replacing them].  Nobody took it at all seriously until one Sunday morning when a huge pine fell straight across the first green!


2.  At Medinah, when we were working on Course #1, I noticed that there would be a better view of the dome of the clubhouse if they took down some trees that had been planted in front of the clubhouse, near the pro shop.  The committee members didn't like the idea; they started talking about maybe it would expose the a/c units on the roof.  Then, when we got up there to look at the trees, someone mentioned that the year before, a member had been KILLED when a limb fell from one of the same trees!  My horrified look got them to think about cutting down the trees.


The only place I have felt really endangered by the potential for falling limbs was at Royal Wellington GC in New Zealand.  It's very windy and they had a lot of terrible trees around back in those days.  I think they've thinned out a lot of the dangerous stuff now.

[V_Halyard]

I was with a timber man this weekend and he was explaining to me that the pine trees such as we saw fall at ANGC are reaching the end of their expected lifespans.  Clubs that were built 100-85 years ago can expect trees to start to fall.  Also as people thin pine trees that become more vulnerable to the wind.  I recall a few years ago when there was a terrible accident in Nashville that killed two golfers in a golf car during high winds.  A caddy was killed by a falling tree limb in SC a few years ago and a few golf course employees have been killed over the years. 
Clubs take lightning seriously but rarely do you see clubs closed for wind. I expect to things start to happen to protect clubs as well as fans and golfers.  Going to get interesting....

In the midwest, lots of our oaks, ashes and any remaining elms are near end of life.
Thankfully, we are having few problems convincing that tree "with the cute hollowed out branch where the birds and squirrels gather" has the potential kill a bunch of folks.
90-145MPH winds that erased 1000's of trees in 45 minutes leaves an impression. 

[Thomas Dai]

I had a large tree limb fall within inches of me last year. No warning at all, not even a windy day. 'Crash'. Not an enjoyable experience although I imagine some might wish it had hit me!!!
To paraphrase Bobby Jones .... "There is no place for trees on a golf course."

atb

[Tim Martin]

The white and red pines are a problem in New England. The Orchards GC in South Hadley, Massachusetts had to take out thousands on a property that was treeless in the 1920’s when it was built. I attached a video that the superintendent made back in 2021 that lasts roughly eight minutes and details the scope of the problem.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=SIDYVuglV_M&feature=share

[John Blain]

The white and red pines are a problem in New England. The Orchards GC in South Hadley, Massachusetts had to take out thousands on a property that was treeless in the 1920’s when it was built. I attached a video that the superintendent made back in 2021 that lasts roughly eight minutes and details the scope of the problem.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=SIDYVuglV_M&feature=share

Tim-
I'm sure you remember a couple of years ago when Wyantenuck's HP Tom Sullivan was killed by a falling tree while he was out on the course  trying to get some members off the course before an impending storm. It was such an awful tragedy that seemed to rock that entire community.

[Tim Martin]

The white and red pines are a problem in New England. The Orchards GC in South Hadley, Massachusetts had to take out thousands on a property that was treeless in the 1920’s when it was built. I attached a video that the superintendent made back in 2021 that lasts roughly eight minutes and details the scope of the problem.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=SIDYVuglV_M&feature=share

Tim-
I'm sure you remember a couple of years ago when Wyantenuck's HP Tom Sullivan was killed by a falling tree while he was out on the course  trying to get some members off the course before an impending storm. It was such an awful tragedy that seemed to rock that entire community.

John-It absolutely rocked both the local and golf community in the Berkshires and beyond. I can’t recall a more gracious man/golf professional in my years around the game. I played a few times in the Wyantenuck Spring and Fall Opens and spending some time with him was a highlight.

[Charlie Goerges]

How often do clubs hire a forester or similar person to come in and think more deeply about trees and management?


Edit: I had to look up and at the scale of a golf course, it may not really be "forestry" but rather "silviculture" we'd be talking about.

[Marty Bonnar]

How often do clubs hire a forester or similar person to come in and think more deeply about trees and management?


Edit: I had to look up and at the scale of a golf course, it may not really be "forestry" but rather "silviculture" we'd be talking about.

Charlie,
Silviculture, then Arboriculture. There are very well-defined Risk Assessments for the dangers of trees (at least over here). They’re essentially about how likely a tree is to fall or shed, what it might damage if it did and what mitigation can be done to avoid the worst. Trees fall all the time of course. They have lifespans like every other organism.
A good Arborist can tell at the slightest glance how healthy or sick a tree is. I’ve been with guys who’ve insisted what I thought was a really healthy-looking tree should be felled, only to see how massively diseased it was when it was brought down. Those guys are GOOD!
F.

[Buck Wolter]

My wife and I were on a green last summer and a huge limb from a tree near the green crashed to the ground where you walk off towards the next tee. No wind, no warning just a huge noise and ~1000 lbs of tree dropping 25 feet. I don't think a Ninja could have gotten out of the way. I give them an even wider berth than I used to.


Ironically it seems like most people look at the trees as improving safety by blocking errant shots.

[Charlie Goerges]

How often do clubs hire a forester or similar person to come in and think more deeply about trees and management?


Edit: I had to look up and at the scale of a golf course, it may not really be "forestry" but rather "silviculture" we'd be talking about.

Charlie,
Silviculture, then Arboriculture. There are very well-defined Risk Assessments for the dangers of trees (at least over here). They’re essentially about how likely a tree is to fall or shed, what it might damage if it did and what mitigation can be done to avoid the worst. Trees fall all the time of course. They have lifespans like every other organism.
A good Arborist can tell at the slightest glance how healthy or sick a tree is. I’ve been with guys who’ve insisted what I thought was a really healthy-looking tree should be felled, only to see how massively diseased it was when it was brought down. Those guys are GOOD!
F.

Exactly, but the way it gets described on this site, it seems like every step is totally haphazard and then an arborist is brought in to take down a bunch of trees at once. I wonder if you get an expert in earlier on and plan out the lifecycle of what is now a pretty artificial stand of trees, there wouldn't be so many problems later on?

[Kalen Braley]

Just to play devils advocate, because I agree that less trees on a golf course in general is better..

But I wonder how this 'problem' aligns from a probability perspective?  I'm guessing you've got a higher chance of being struck by lightening or bit by a shark over being hit and killed by a falling tree limb.  (Tree trimmers/loggers excluded who intentionally put themselves in said position)

[Charlie Goerges]

JI'm guessing you've got a higher chance of being struck by lightening or bit by a shark over being hit and killed by a falling tree limb.

I thought that couldn't be true, but in some limited googling, it appears to be so. (If you expand the lightning portion to being killed by it, the odds get closer on that account). Still every eventuality with trees would probably be best served by more holistic and long-term planning. Which is why I wondered how often clubs/courses employ the type of people who could do this.

[Bernie Bell]

How often do clubs hire a forester or similar person to come in and think more deeply about trees and management?


Edit: I had to look up and at the scale of a golf course, it may not really be "forestry" but rather "silviculture" we'd be talking about.

I met with a fellow at Riviera in ~1995-96 (shortly after OJ trial), and I think his proper title was arborist.  He was a member, not hired by the club, and I was there to talk to him about his work beginning in the 1920s and 30s (!) in a pole yard for Southern California Edison.  He was past his golfing years, but my recollection is that he told me he was spending considerable time cataloguing all of the (beautiful) trees on the property. 

[Mike_Young]

Mike:


If you hadn't noticed, there are lots of clubs taking out trees for lots of reasons.

Tom,Yep.  Seems to be a lot of them keeping trees for the wrong reasons also.  One place I was last year has a huge oak tree in front of a green on a short par 4.  I has no business being there but the powers in charge think it would ruin the hole to remove it.  It will ruin the green when it falls but that's about it.  IMHO, for the aveage course, removing trees is still a battle.

[Ian Mackenzie]

This happened at Like Keiser's Dunes Club in 2011:


 https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/chicago-man-dies-when-tree-falls-on-him-at-mich-golf-course/

[John Blain]

JI'm guessing you've got a higher chance of being struck by lightening or bit by a shark over being hit and killed by a falling tree limb.

I thought that couldn't be true, but in some limited googling, it appears to be so. (If you expand the lightning portion to being killed by it, the odds get closer on that account). Still every eventuality with trees would probably be best served by more holistic and long-term planning. Which is why I wondered how often clubs/courses employ the type of people who could do this.

I honestly don't think many members or even members of the Green Committee think about hiring an arborist. They figure the Superintendent gets paid to manage the trees and then get upset when he cuts some of them down.
I believe the exception would be the big-time clubs like Winged Foot, etc. who have an arborist on retainer.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm no arborist, but it seems like you could hire someone to come out every few years for a few days and do an assessment of the oldest trees and make recommendations on which ones need to come down and others that just need a good pruning.

Almost like many courses have a GCA do same with similar cadence for the course? 

[Charlie Goerges]

I'm no arborist, but it seems like you could hire someone to come out every few years for a few days and do an assessment of the oldest trees and make recommendations on which ones need to come down and others that just need a good pruning.

Almost like many courses have a GCA do same with similar cadence for the course? 

Kalen and John, I feel like that's a good start, but as Martin explained, it goes (from largest to most granular): Forestry then Silviculture and then Arboriculture. The Arborist is only at that third level and what I'm wondering is if a course could plan better by making use of one of the two prior levels of planning. Maybe not thinking of it in such a maintenance mindset but more expansively (and on a longer timescale)?

[Tim Martin]

JI'm guessing you've got a higher chance of being struck by lightening or bit by a shark over being hit and killed by a falling tree limb.

I thought that couldn't be true, but in some limited googling, it appears to be so. (If you expand the lightning portion to being killed by it, the odds get closer on that account). Still every eventuality with trees would probably be best served by more holistic and long-term planning. Which is why I wondered how often clubs/courses employ the type of people who could do this.

I honestly don't think many members or even members of the Green Committee think about hiring an arborist. They figure the Superintendent gets paid to manage the trees and then get upset when he cuts some of them down.
I believe the exception would be the big-time clubs like Winged Foot, etc. who have an arborist on retainer.

When you get to a certain number, species and size of tree having the super and crew take it on is a fools errand just from a safety perspective. It’s a tough sell not only from the standpoint of members not wanting to part with the trees but then when the estimate comes for the work they reel in horror and use it as another reason not to move forward. To Charlie’s point a forward thinking plan of action either included in or in addition to an architectural master plan would benefit most clubs.

[Charlie Goerges]

JI'm guessing you've got a higher chance of being struck by lightening or bit by a shark over being hit and killed by a falling tree limb.

I thought that couldn't be true, but in some limited googling, it appears to be so. (If you expand the lightning portion to being killed by it, the odds get closer on that account). Still every eventuality with trees would probably be best served by more holistic and long-term planning. Which is why I wondered how often clubs/courses employ the type of people who could do this.

I honestly don't think many members or even members of the Green Committee think about hiring an arborist. They figure the Superintendent gets paid to manage the trees and then get upset when he cuts some of them down.
I believe the exception would be the big-time clubs like Winged Foot, etc. who have an arborist on retainer.

When you get to a certain number, species and size of tree having the super and crew take it on is a fools errand just from a safety perspective. It’s a tough sell not only from the standpoint of members not wanting to part with the trees but then when the estimate comes for the work they reel in horror and use it as another reason not to move forward. To Charlie’s point a forward thinking plan of action either included in or in addition to an architectural master plan would benefit most clubs.

Yes, that's what I'm thinking of. I mean, maybe it would be a part of the master plan, overseen by the architect, I just don't want to add "forester" to the already long list of responsibilities of the architect if they're not comfortable with that. But it needs to be the whole lifecycle of the tree ecosystem.


Multiple times already in this thread, people have mentioned that all the trees are (roughly) the same age at X course. That's a problem, for people who like trees and for those who don't. A healthy forest will have some diversity of ages of trees. On a golf course, it would take planning and management to keep up that diversity of ages so that you don't end up with a bunch of dying trees at once, nor a bunch of saplings. It seems pretty clear that most places are not thinking in those terms, but maybe they should be?

[Steve Abt]

I'm guessing you've got a higher chance of being struck by lightening or bit by a shark over being hit and killed by a falling tree limb.

A random person may be more likely to be bitten by a shark than hit with a tree limb, but I am sure that is not true for the random avid golfer. And, of course, courses often have a lightning horn alert system to mitigate that risk, so even if tree limbs falling is not as great a concern, it still probably makes sense to think about how to reduce the risk.

[Mike_Trenham]

The only thing worse for a club than having most of the trees the same age is having members mostly of the same age.