[Anthony Butler]

Slow players are slow, no matter what they do or do not do as far as methods for playing the game.  Give everyone a solid white ball, and the slow guys will still be slow.

It's a team sport, but somehow they managed to solve slow play with Baseball. The Patriots Day game here at Fenway got played in a little over 2 hours. The advertisers and the beer sellers will start complaining it's going too quickly soon.

[David_Tepper]

"It's called "Reading" the putt. Not feeling"

Jeff W. -

I don't have my copy of Tom Watson's short game book (written in 1987) handy, but I recall him writing in it that he some times "read" the break of a putt with his feet by walking on the green.

DT

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Director of Whataboutisms chimes in right on schedule

It's not whataboutism to point out the issues with your "rule."

It's a game of honor.
You "accidentally" have your logo up and you get questioned?

The rules don't care if you "accidentally" bump your ball in the rough and cause it to move position. You're still penalized (they don't care that it was an accident outside of a search and/or some other specific situations). It has nothing to do with honor there. There are plenty of times what you do is all that matters, not your "honor" or intent.

You explain it was not aligning and your past and future patterns will clearly demonstrate whether it was an accudent.
Not sure how if you're told to align it "solid white up" you'd do that, but I'd give the benefit of the doubt in one instance.

How do you handle a perpendicular line on the back of the ball? How do you handle a logo ball that doesn't have a large white area?

A line on a ball aimimg exacvtly at the start line is an alignment aid and is the same as a club on then ground on the target line as I hit the shot(IMHO)

It isn't, under the Rules.

This is descending into some form of madness and a bunch of "solutions" in search of a problem.

Yep.

I wasn't going to get into this as it's an endless rathole, but the proposed "solutions" are so impractical and impossible to enforce as to be laughable. As well as doing little to nothing to improve pace of play.

Yep x 2.

[jeffwarne]

Appreciate all the thoughts and feedback-especially form those who know a lot about the subject.


As we learned during The Masters, many things are are  not enforceable if players lie or caddies aren't asked the right questions.
 so(if my pet peeve cheater line rule changed) it's hard for to see why if players know it's a rule, why it would be out of line to ask a player if he was aligning if he took an inordinate amount of time to mark and remark as they do now.
Of course he could just lie, as they evidently occasionally do when their ball moves or advice is given.




and here we sit, watching endless processes that are longer than ever, even by those who do it with proper ettiquette and pace. It's just more to do.
So nothing changes and we continue to excuse away 5 hour rounds in two balls.
And aspiring/new players copy the routines.


Anything can be justified, with very reasoned, experienced and intelligent debate.
It doesn't mean I have to agree, even if I respect your opinion.


Rules, interpretations and enforcement aren't easy.
Sometimes hard things have to be done to enact change.


20 years ago, very few on this board supported a rollback, and almost none supported it off this board.
yet there's about to be one.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

so(if my pet peeve cheater line rule changed) it's hard for to see why if players know it's a rule, why it would be out of line to ask a player if he was aligning if he took an inordinate amount of time to mark and remark as they do now.

You seem to be missing the point, too, that slow players are slow. That the stupid line isn't the cause of slow play, and that removing it will NOT improve the speed of a round of golf by eight minutes.

Rules, interpretations and enforcement aren't easy. Sometimes hard things have to be done to enact change.

If you have a hard time writing the rule, it may be a good sign that it's not a good rule. Just like writing a rule for relief from old divot holes… you can't even define an old "divot hole" well, so you can't really write the rule. (Whether you should or not is a different matter.) This would be a worthless rules change IMO: it wouldn't solve anything, it would add a whole bunch of judgment calls, mind-reading, etc.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I believe one of the rules of discussing things on line is, “there are no dumb questions.” This thread tests that rule. Balls have always had brand names on them, and before lines people used brand names as an alignment aid.
   Aa has been said by many, this discussion is silly. Slow players cause slow play. You want to stop slow play? Set time limits (whether on a per shot basis or full round basis) and enforce them.  If this can’t be done in a reasonable way, then peer pressure is pretty much all that’s left.

[Sean_A]

If anything, golf has too many rules. The vast majority of golfers don't know a large percentage of the rules. Therefore, I can't see adding rules unless there is a guaranteed positive outcome. That said, if there was a sunset limit of maybe 5 years when all rules should be reviewed, then, ok. The rule or any rule, is elimited if the powers that be don't actively decide to retain it.

If I am for any rule change, it will be for something of character. Not to stop someone swinging a putter or lining up a putt in a way which offends. No, it would be for something meaningful...like the stymie.

Ciao

[Peter Sayegh]

Hasn't the "cheater" line been discussed here before?


With the newer vibrant alignment graphics offered now, I do see it making slow players play slower because they eyeball the alignment on the tee which is a new phenomenon to me.

If I am for any rule change, it will be for something of character. Not to stop someone swinging a putter or lining up a putt in a way which offends. No, it would be for something meaningful...like the stymie.
Ciao

If pace is the goal, I still advocate NEVER touching your ball on the green UNLESS you stymie a fellow player.

 

[Sean_A]

Hasn't the "cheater" line been discussed here before?

With the newer vibrant alignment graphics offered now, I do see it making slow players play slower because they eyeball the alignment on the tee which is a new phenomenon to me.

If I am for any rule change, it will be for something of character. Not to stop someone swinging a putter or lining up a putt in a way which offends. No, it would be for something meaningful...like the stymie.
Ciao

If pace is the goal, I still advocate NEVER touching your ball on the green UNLESS you stymie a fellow player.

While I agree with your sentiment, I am not sure the main focus of a rule should be about saving time unless it is associated with time keeping.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

Hasn't the "cheater" line been discussed here before?

Ad nauseum when Shivas was on the board.

[jeffwarne]

   I believe one of the rules of discussing things on line is, “there are no dumb questions.” This thread tests that rule. Balls have always had brand names on them, and before lines people used brand names as an alignment aid.
   Aa has been said by many, this discussion is silly. Slow players cause slow play. You want to stop slow play? Set time limits (whether on a per shot basis or full round basis) and enforce them.  If this can’t be done in a reasonable way, then peer pressure is pretty much all that’s left.

I pretty much agree with most of what you type.
It's called a discussion board and there have been many valid points made by multiple people.
Why you would engage in a "silly" discussion puzzles me a bit though.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I took a quick look at a Pro-V1 and I think I could even line up the dimples, although that would probably be slower.

When the Pro V1 first came onto the market, Jack Nicklaus claimed if you teed up the 'Pro V1" on the side of the ball with your intended line of play it was good for another 10-15yds off the driver. He referred to this as 'seaming'. The Pro V1 at that time, did appear to be two half spheres joined together. I'm not sure if any independent testing confirmed this theory.

https://indexarticles.com/sports/golf-digest/right-on-the-seam-titleist-pro-v1-golf-ball-2/

[Wayne_Kozun]

Hasn't the "cheater" line been discussed here before?

Ad nauseum when Shivas was on the board.

Yep - I linked to the 47 page thread from a decade or so ago earlier in this thread.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Hopefully things continue to get discussed until they get solved or at least improve.  And if the last two weekends on the PGA mean anything, things have gotten worse IMO.

[Niall C]

   I believe one of the rules of discussing things on line is, “there are no dumb questions.” This thread tests that rule. Balls have always had brand names on them, and before lines people used brand names as an alignment aid.
   Aa has been said by many, this discussion is silly. Slow players cause slow play. You want to stop slow play? Set time limits (whether on a per shot basis or full round basis) and enforce them.  If this can’t be done in a reasonable way, then peer pressure is pretty much all that’s left.

Jim


Yes, but why are slow players slow ? There are reasons and what Jeff and others are doing is trying to find a way to deal with those reasons. Simply putting them on the clock has its problems as well as invariably when a group is on the clock it affects the quick players in the group as much as the slow ones and probably more so.


Niall 

[Sean_A]

   I believe one of the rules of discussing things on line is, “there are no dumb questions.” This thread tests that rule. Balls have always had brand names on them, and before lines people used brand names as an alignment aid.
   Aa has been said by many, this discussion is silly. Slow players cause slow play. You want to stop slow play? Set time limits (whether on a per shot basis or full round basis) and enforce them.  If this can’t be done in a reasonable way, then peer pressure is pretty much all that’s left.

Jim


Yes, but why are slow players slow ? There are reasons and what Jeff and others are doing is trying to find a way to deal with those reasons. Simply putting them on the clock has its problems as well as invariably when a group is on the clock it affects the quick players in the group as much as the slow ones and probably more so.

Niall

In the first instance, I don't have an issue with tagging the entire group. People go on about protecting the field, well here is a great opportunity to do so. It's harsh, but the problem calls for a harsh remedy.

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

Simple answer to slow play is to be ready to play your shot when it is your turn. Using the line on the ball is a couple of seconds - the problem is the amount of time you spend figuring where the line should be pointed.  A large percentage of golf today is played using carts and if one player is sitting in the cart while is partner is playing his shot instead of either driving or walking to his ball then time is being wasted.

[Rob Marshall]

Simple answer to slow play is to be ready to play your shot when it is your turn. Using the line on the ball is a couple of seconds - the problem is the amount of time you spend figuring where the line should be pointed.  A large percentage of golf today is played using carts and if one player is sitting in the cart while is partner is playing his shot instead of either driving or walking to his ball then time is being wasted.

Every time I get stuck behind a slow group, sitting in the cart until it’s their time to play is what I see.

[Sean_A]

Simple answer to slow play is to be ready to play your shot when it is your turn. Using the line on the ball is a couple of seconds - the problem is the amount of time you spend figuring where the line should be pointed.  A large percentage of golf today is played using carts and if one player is sitting in the cart while is partner is playing his shot instead of either driving or walking to his ball then time is being wasted.

This is true. I know I am a slow walker so you will often see me up the wings ahead of players hitting shots. I often leave the tee as soon as the last person hits to try and get ahead. If I stand back for every shot I know it will slow the game down.

Ciao

[Jay Mickle]

Professional golfers may spend hours on the putting green working on their putting stroke to ensure that they can put on the line that they see. They also spend a lot of time working to ensure that they can see that line correctly.
The overwhelming majority of golfers probably cannot accurately read the proper line, and surely do not practice enough to be able to hit the ball on the line that they see.
Judge the speed correctly and get the ball close. Some of the time by chance the ball is going to go into the hole. Move on.

[Stewart Abramson]

Simple answer to slow play is to be ready to play your shot when it is your turn.


A large percentage of golf today is played using carts and if one player is sitting in the cart while is partner is playing his shot instead of either driving or walking to his ball then time is being wasted.

This has to be at, or near, the top of the list of things that make rounds too slow.

[jeffwarne]

As many have noted, slow players cause slow golf.
There have always been slow players who dawdle, not ready, sit in the cart, tell a story when it's their turn to hit etc....
Of course all of that has to be addressed, especially at a club or daily fee level.


But few would question that golf has gotten significantly slower over time-especially competitive golf.
IMHO it is because there are simply more and longer processes than there used to be.
If you dispute that, well you simply haven't competed for 50 years as I have.


More process take more time, EVEN if they do it without delay within a prescribed limit.
A brisk player with a minimal process used to do in 15 seconds what now takes 40 with a longer process etc. etc.(often they are moving quite fast through their process-it just has a lot of steps)
Then add in a deliberate player with the same extra processes and it simply takes even more time.


I yield to those and respect those in the discussion who find these processes acceptable, but the only way pace of play can improve is to have discussions about what length of time and processes we all find acceptable.
Occasionally someone will suggest something others find "silly", but the smartest people I've been around taught me a long time ago that outside the box or "silly" questions that challenge the status quo are often the root of solutions.


It just seems to me that telling people that "slow players cause slow play", while true, hasn't worked.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

Couldn't get agree more with your last post.  Slow play certainly seems to have been institutionalized at the highest levels as I mentioned in the other thread.

P.S.  I would also add that "progress" rarely comes in giant leaps and bounds, it almost always occurs by tiny incremental improvements that add up in the aggregate.  Sadly the reverse is also true, with decades of adding more and more pre-shot routines and check boxes, but perhaps we've reached a critical mass for change like Baseball.

[Rob Marshall]

I think must slow players know they are slow players. They just don't CARE if they hold anyone up. How many times have you  heard "we weren't slow we played in less that 4:10". My group plays in about 3:15. We are typically the first group off on Sat and Sunday mornings and finish a couple of holes ahead of the guys behind us. Nothing on the course bothers me more than knowing my group is holding people up. That said, I'm also not out there to race around in 2:45.


Keep up with the group in front of you only works when the first group sets the pace.

[Rob Marshall]

https://golf.com/news/patrick-cantlay-slow-player-what-he-thinks/

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