Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice

[Ira Fishman]

I am far from a Rules expert, but I see nothing about intent in the Advice Rule (10.2 I believe).


But regardless, let me offer a hypothetical that builds on A.G.'s post:


Koepka is playing with a buddy--let's say Woodland--in the last group in the last round of the Houston Memorial (yes, I know that he is not eligible as a LIV member), and he blows up on the front nine. Some player--let's say Cantlay--is in the group in front and is tied with Woodland.


Is is okay for Koepka or his caddie to club Woodland or otherwise offer advice about how to play holes given Koepka's knowledge of the course as a consultant in its design? Or should the Advice Rule be ignored in the breach?


It seems like a sensible rule that should be enforced.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

How would a story that Adam Scott has told numerous times about Tiger factor into this discussion?
Scott said Tiger would loudly talk to his caddie about his club selection on a par 3, then intentionally pull and hit a club that was two clubs too long for the stock/needed shot, only to pull Scott into doing the same, which he did and flew the green to make bogey.

Sounds like Scott got “gamed” by Tiger. Not against the rules.

[Charlie Goerges]

I am far from a Rules expert, but I see nothing about intent in the Advice Rule (10.2 I believe).

You’re right, either I imagined it, or it might have come from the decisions.

[John_Cullum]

I am far from a Rules expert, but I see nothing about intent in the Advice Rule (10.2 I believe).


But regardless, let me offer a hypothetical that builds on A.G.'s post:


Koepka is playing with a buddy--let's say Woodland--in the last group in the last round of the Houston Memorial (yes, I know that he is not eligible as a LIV member), and he blows up on the front nine. Some player--let's say Cantlay--is in the group in front and is tied with Woodland.


Is is okay for Koepka or his caddie to club Woodland or otherwise offer advice about how to play holes given Koepka's knowledge of the course as a consultant in its design? Or should the Advice Rule be ignored in the breach?


It seems like a sensible rule that should be enforced.


Ira

Please, please, please read the goddamned rules
before posting

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I am far from a Rules expert, but I see nothing about intent in the Advice Rule (10.2 I believe).

As is often the case, you have to look at the Definitions. Look up "Advice" in the definitions.

That said, if Tiger's not giving the info to Scott (or vice versa), it's not advice. Just as Harry Vardon putting his hand on his driver to tempt Francis in the movie to hit driver also was not advice.

[John_Cullum]

I am far from a Rules expert, but I see nothing about intent in the Advice Rule (10.2 I believe).

As is often the case, you have to look at the Definitions. Look up "Advice" in the definitions.

That said, if Tiger's not giving the info to Scott (or vice versa), it's not advice. Just as Harry Vardon putting his hand on his driver to tempt Francis in the movie to hit driver also was not advice.

Wrong. The rules clearly prevent such

[Ira Fishman]

I am far from a Rules expert, but I see nothing about intent in the Advice Rule (10.2 I believe).


But regardless, let me offer a hypothetical that builds on A.G.'s post:


Koepka is playing with a buddy--let's say Woodland--in the last group in the last round of the Houston Memorial (yes, I know that he is not eligible as a LIV member), and he blows up on the front nine. Some player--let's say Cantlay--is in the group in front and is tied with Woodland.


Is is okay for Koepka or his caddie to club Woodland or otherwise offer advice about how to play holes given Koepka's knowledge of the course as a consultant in its design? Or should the Advice Rule be ignored in the breach?


It seems like a sensible rule that should be enforced.


Ira

Please, please, please read the goddamned rules
before posting

I did, but failed to check the definitions. My bad. But the intent aspect of the definition of Advice does not affect the hypothetical unless Koepka was clubbing Woodland just for the fun of it.


Indeed, the definition makes the rule even more sensible.


Ira

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Wrong. The rules clearly prevent such.

No, sorry. Tiger is allowed to talk to his caddie. He's not giving advice to Adam Scott, he's simply making misleading comments to his caddie. Good luck proving otherwise.

[Chip Gaskins]

This was the exact debate I was talking about.
Is the advice from a position of "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" standpoint.

Or is the advice from a sportsmanship Seve/Tiger/Azinger "opps, sorry about that" standpoint
Again, going to this weird golf rules position of "intent"

[Pat Burke]

My experience was similar happened all the time.  I was actually a little surprised at how much guys looked in your bag to see what club is being hit or how after a shot the club would “linger” a bit showing the number for anyone who would want to peak.


I trended to hit a lot of different shots so I had to be difficult to club off of. I didn’t do much looking either, it confused me sometimes, which was a short trip most days

[Charlie Goerges]

My experience was similar happened all the time.  I was actually a little surprised at how much guys looked in your bag to see what club is being hit or how after a shot the club would “linger” a bit showing the number for anyone who would want to peak.


I trended to hit a lot of different shots so I had to be difficult to club off of. I didn’t do much looking either, it confused me sometimes, which was a short trip most days

Indeed I find this phenomenon way more difficult to understand than the ruling by the committee or any other thing about this whole situation. Pat, do you know why the guys are so free with this information but yet many are sticklers about really most of the other rules?

[Tom_Doak]

My experience was similar happened all the time.  I was actually a little surprised at how much guys looked in your bag to see what club is being hit or how after a shot the club would “linger” a bit showing the number for anyone who would want to peak.

I trended to hit a lot of different shots so I had to be difficult to club off of. I didn’t do much looking either, it confused me sometimes, which was a short trip most days

Indeed I find this phenomenon way more difficult to understand than the ruling by the committee or any other thing about this whole situation. Pat, do you know why the guys are so free with this information but yet many are sticklers about really most of the other rules?

Possibly because this has been going on for a long time?  Pre-dating the use of rangefinders and officially provided yardages?


For anything that happens on Tour today I also think about whether it's been a part of college golf, because nearly all of the players go through that portal on their way to the PGA TOUR.  I would imagine that teammates often share info in practice and [maybe?] on course . . . can the coach tell his third player what the first two players through hit to the green on a par-3?


By the same token, college coaches are so competitive that I doubt players are ever encouraged to watch what their opponents are hitting, and certainly not to share information from their own experience.

[Pat Burke]

My experience was similar happened all the time.  I was actually a little surprised at how much guys looked in your bag to see what club is being hit or how after a shot the club would “linger” a bit showing the number for anyone who would want to peak.


I trended to hit a lot of different shots so I had to be difficult to club off of. I didn’t do much looking either, it confused me sometimes, which was a short trip most days

Indeed I find this phenomenon way more difficult to understand than the ruling by the committee or any other thing about this whole situation. Pat, do you know why the guys are so free with this information but yet many are sticklers about really most of the other rules?

Charlie,
Honestly don’t know. I felt I was pretty much a stickler on the rules but there I was.  I would tell anyone what I hit, but I certainly never worried about anyone seeing the club I hit. 


I also called my ball moving after address 10+ times in my career, so maybe I’m just bipolar.


It’s interesting to look at this in the context of the Masters from far on the sidelines, the quiet sharing of clubs hit was going on all the time now that I look back.  A rule that, in effect, isn’t.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

can the coach tell his third player what the first two players through hit to the green on a par-3?

Yes.

By the same token, college coaches are so competitive that I doubt players are ever encouraged to watch what their opponents are hitting, and certainly not to share information from their own experience.

You might be surprised. PGA Tour players are competitive, too, but they share it. It happens at the collegiate level, too.

Unfortunately.

And, like with backstopping, you can sometimes be seen as "the jerk" if you don't acquiesce. It's bullcrap, IMO, that players feel the pressure to basically give their opponents information.

[Tim Martin]

I rarely watch college golf but I’ve always thought the level of interaction between the coaches and players was excessive. I have watched the NCAA Division 1 Northeast Regionals a number of times at Yale and that is a takeaway I always have. I get it during the practice rounds but when the competition starts I wish they would let them play without so much interference. I wonder how often they hinder their player versus helping them?

[Tim Leahy]

My experience was similar happened all the time.  I was actually a little surprised at how much guys looked in your bag to see what club is being hit or how after a shot the club would “linger” a bit showing the number for anyone who would want to peak.

I trended to hit a lot of different shots so I had to be difficult to club off of. I didn’t do much looking either, it confused me sometimes, which was a short trip most days

Indeed I find this phenomenon way more difficult to understand than the ruling by the committee or any other thing about this whole situation. Pat, do you know why the guys are so free with this information but yet many are sticklers about really most of the other rules?

Possibly because this has been going on for a long time?  Pre-dating the use of rangefinders and officially provided yardages?


For anything that happens on Tour today I also think about whether it's been a part of college golf, because nearly all of the players go through that portal on their way to the PGA TOUR.  I would imagine that teammates often share info in practice and [maybe?] on course . . . can the coach tell his third player what the first two players through hit to the green on a par-3?


By the same token, college coaches are so competitive that I doubt players are ever encouraged to watch what their opponents are hitting, and certainly not to share information from their own experience.

Just yesterday on TGC while I was watching the college tourny from Pasatiempo, an Oregon golfer who was 1 shot back of the leader on the windy par 3 15th, took 3 steps away from his bag to look up close into another kids bag who had just it over the green to see what club he hit. Announcers even mentioned it was a good idea without mentioning anything about a rules violation or even bad etiquette. He then hit a good shot pin high but missed the putt and finished 1 shot back to the winner, a kid from Pepperdine. So it must be commonplace in college also.

[Sean_A]

Sharing club info on the tour has been going on as long as I have watched golf. That's why it was a big deal when towels were thrown over the bag. Made you think there was perhaps a beef going on between the players.

Back stopping has been has been happening forever. As has not dropping the ball in the exact spot of where it was hit after a penalty for the obvious reason the ball might hang up in the divot.

Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

As has not dropping the ball in the exact spot of where it was hit after a penalty for the obvious reason the ball might hang up in the divot.

They'd have to re-drop anyway because the divot hole is almost certainly forward of the location from which that ball was hit.


It's different if you're a chop and your divot starts 6" behind the ball… 

[Jim_Coleman]

   It pleases me that backstopping is now recognized as commonplace. The remedy should be double disqualification for collusion. But the rule requires an actual agreement; a tacit agreement doesn’t qualify.
    I propose a rule change - the 5/10 rule. If the ball on the green is within 5 feet of the hole and the ball off the green is within 10 yards of the green, the ball must be marked or the chipper will receive a one stroke penalty if he hits the other ball. No, this won’t slow down play; players will just stop backstopping.

[Craig Sweet]

I know pretty much 100% what club the guys in my regular group are playing without cheating. I would be shocked if these pros don't....

[Sean_A]

   It pleases me that backstopping is now recognized as commonplace. The remedy should be double disqualification for collusion. But the rule requires an actual agreement; a tacit agreement doesn’t qualify.
    I propose a rule change - the 5/10 rule. If the ball on the green is within 5 feet of the hole and the ball off the green is within 10 yards of the green, the ball must be marked or the chipper will receive a one stroke penalty if he hits the other ball. No, this won’t slow down play; players will just stop backstopping.

Really, 5 & 10 yards? You are introducing crazy specifics that would at times require a seriously accurate measurement. Back stopping never bothered me. It's all part of the rub of the game. I never watched golf or any sport for the most accurate or fair result. I watch for drama, intrigue, mishaps and moments of greatness. That part of sports is slowly being eroded and to me it is tragic.

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

I can't recall what exactly, but didn't Hogan do something to the numbers on his clubs to prevent other golfers knowing what he'd hit.  Seems a long way from there...

I'm not as worked up about it as some, but I do struggle with the idea that the players of a game decide which rules apply.  After this I hope their committee of representatives will write to the rules committee and say can't we just drop rules X, Y and that part of Z...(I'm not holding my breath).

[Jim_Coleman]

Sean: Backstopping isn’t rub if the green; it’s collusion and it’s cheating. No, there won’t be lots of measurements and delays, because if players measure and leave the ball, it’s clearly collusion. They’ll just mark it. Is my 5/10 rule perfect? No. Will it end backstopping/cheating? Yes.

[A.G._Crockett]

IMO, there is a world of difference between backstopping and the question of advice. 


I believe the rule requires a player to mark his ball on the green IF doing so can be accomplished without undue delay. (If my wording is incorrect, I think that gets the gist right?). That creates a ton of judgement calls already; even if I’m close to the green, should I sprint to mark my ball if another player is already preparing to play his shot?  If I’m not mistaken, the current rule is a one-way rule, isn’t it?  It requires me to mark if I can do so without undue delay, but it doesn’t require another player to wait while I go and mark my ball.


Any attempt to add to that rule brings even more judgement into the equation.  How close to the hole? How close am I to the green? How close to the line of play?  And so on…


I will cop to going ahead and playing my shot before a fellow competitor has time to walk up and mark his ball, but only when I was already closer to the green to begin with. I don’t hurry to play the shot; that would be counterproductive vs the remote possibility that my ball MIGHT hit the other ball and be helped by that more than if I just played a good shot to begin with.  I realize the pros are far more precise than I, and it bugs the heck out of me that this practice goes on, but I don’t know how you legislate it away without creating even more issues and slowing up play.


The club selection thing, by contrast, is relatively cut and dried. Either advice was asked for/given, or it wasn’t. Looking away with a wink and a nod, or saying, “Well, everybody does it…” doesn’t change that.


I’ll say it again; I struggle with the concept of these guys in ANY way assisting a guy they are trying to beat. I just do NOT get that, and I’ve been in competitive sports for 60+ years now. It is beyond my comprehension.

[Sean_A]

Sean: Backstopping isn’t rub if the green; it’s collusion and it’s cheating. No, there won’t be lots of measurements and delays, because if players measure and leave the ball, it’s clearly collusion. They’ll just mark it. Is my 5/10 rule perfect? No. Will it end backstopping/cheating? Yes.

Except so called back stopping isn't cheating. You are on about tacit agreements between players to mark or not....no? A player can request a ball be marked or a player can mark a ball if they choose to. I am of the mind that if I can comfortably mark the ball without holding up play I will do so. However, my priority is not to interfere with the rhythm of another golfer over marking the ball. You may disagree and that's ok. But in my experience, that is how the game is played 🤷. And yes, in your scenario I can definitely see issues with measuring distance for the sake of rule accuracy. Nope, introducing distance into the rule creates more grief. If you think it's fixed, don't bet on golf.

Ciao