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Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2023, 12:53:29 PM »
John VDB is on the road at the moment, but he communicated a couple of things and one of those is that the way advice is ruled on was liberalized in 2019 in order to protect players from being penalized because of comments made in passing. He didn't have time for a full explanation, but I wanted to bring it up. So if you think things were done differently in the past, you would be right. It's not clear that this liberalization would have had any effect on this situation, but it may well have.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2023, 12:58:17 PM »
Ok, noted. Is that what the players and caddies said happened?


I have never heard an explanation or statement regarding the post round discussion
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2023, 01:21:27 PM »
Ok, noted. Is that what the players and caddies said happened?


I have never heard an explanation or statement regarding the post round discussion




I'm sure we're unlikely to ever find out that information.





Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2023, 01:36:37 PM »
Ok, noted. Is that what the players and caddies said happened?


I have never heard an explanation or statement regarding the post round discussion




I'm sure we're unlikely to ever find out that information.


And what does that tell you?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2023, 02:23:34 PM »
could look at that video and, straight faced, in front of a Masters committee, bullshit their way through it is beyond me.
Woodland and Koepka are in a small category now of liars. It's not "cheating" per se (particularly since the benefactor in this specific case is not even the one penalized), but it's against the rules, and then the lying about it is the worst part.

The biggest problem is people commenting on the rules without ever reading the rule. (That includes Brandel Chamblee, and it's not his first time misrepresenting the rules.) The rule clearly states that it is directed at the intent to influence another player. As Charlie observes, these elite players are so tuned into their equipment, shaft flex, carry distance, ball flight, ability to change ball flight, etc., that having the knowledge of what another guy hits is of no benefit.
This is so incredibly wrong. Knowing what another guy hit is an advantage. That's why they do it. And it's against the rules because of that.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2023, 02:25:55 PM »
I'm guessing that they decided that defending the field against Woodland just wasn't worth the effort. If Koepka had gotten the advice maybe the response would have been different. ;)

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2023, 02:28:37 PM »
I'm guessing that they decided that defending the field against Woodland just wasn't worth the effort. If Koepka had gotten the advice maybe the response would have been different. ;)
Koepka would have been the one penalized, though. So, and maybe you knew that and I misread what you said, but penalizing the player in that case would have been "protecting the field against Koepka."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2023, 03:41:24 PM »
Ok, noted. Is that what the players and caddies said happened?

I have never heard an explanation or statement regarding the post round discussion


I'm sure we're unlikely to ever find out that information.

And what does that tell you?

1/2 week later is certainly tells me it won't be shared, but I'm still wondering how in the hell the masters committee could let it slide.

Relating to the other post about lee-way for players over-hearing things, certainly doesn't seem to apply in this case, as the video showed him yelling it out to the other caddy. I don't see how it could be more explicit...

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2023, 03:50:18 PM »
Relating to the other post about lee-way for players over-hearing things, certainly doesn't seem to apply in this case, as the video showed him yelling it out to the other caddy. I don't see how it could be more explicit...




I think the takeaway is really that they already weren't penalizing people for this before and now (from 2019) they've liberalized it even further. To expect a penalty at this point might be too far outside the realm of possibility.


If this type of advice is as common as many have said, the fact that there aren't frequent penalties probably says all that needs saying (i.e. the rules people and pros really don't care about it). My only gripe is that if that's the case, why even have the rule anymore.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2023, 03:58:03 PM »
Relating to the other post about lee-way for players over-hearing things, certainly doesn't seem to apply in this case, as the video showed him yelling it out to the other caddy. I don't see how it could be more explicit...

I think the takeaway is really that they already weren't penalizing people for this before and now (from 2019) they've liberalized it even further. To expect a penalty at this point might be too far outside the realm of possibility.

If this type of advice is as common as many have said, the fact that there aren't frequent penalties probably says all that needs saying (i.e. the rules people and pros really don't care about it). My only gripe is that if that's the case, why even have the rule anymore.

Sounds reasonable Charlie,

If its as common as they say, seems there would be plenty of other damning video footage out there, unless most tour caddies are better at establishing a more subtle communication system in the locker room.  Or perhaps the video was released by someone with a grudge against Brooks??

Either way its not a good look as it certainly seemed to violate the spirit and intent of the rule especially given its allegedly one of the most intimidating shots on the course...

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2023, 05:02:26 PM »
If this type of advice is as common as many have said, the fact that there aren't frequent penalties probably says all that needs saying (i.e. the rules people and pros really don't care about it). My only gripe is that if that's the case, why even have the rule anymore.
Various players have commented on this. Harry Higgs thinks it should have been a penalty on the NLU podcast. He said that even though most of the players (like with backstopping) participate in this "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" thing here, they do it in a legal way mostly: they clean the club while the number is showing to the other player or caddie, or they'll talk a bit louder to their caddie on the tee box so the others over-hear, or they will not cover up the bag with a towel so the other players can look… etc.

This was blatant.

I'm a bit sad that, again like backstopping, this goes on in pro golf. Though they all seem to think it is "sporting" or something, it's the opposite, as it doesn't keep the playing field level. If you're playing with a guy who doesn't believe in this "mutual back scratching" you're disadvantaged. If you play with a guy who clubs himself pretty similarly, who shares, you're given an advantaged. Etc.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2023, 06:55:42 PM »
Relating to the other post about lee-way for players over-hearing things, certainly doesn't seem to apply in this case, as the video showed him yelling it out to the other caddy. I don't see how it could be more explicit...




I think the takeaway is really that they already weren't penalizing people for this before and now (from 2019) they've liberalized it even further. To expect a penalty at this point might be too far outside the realm of possibility.


If this type of advice is as common as many have said, the fact that there aren't frequent penalties probably says all that needs saying (i.e. the rules people and pros really don't care about it). My only gripe is that if that's the case, why even have the rule anymore.


Exactly
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2023, 07:16:28 PM »
Relating to the other post about lee-way for players over-hearing things, certainly doesn't seem to apply in this case, as the video showed him yelling it out to the other caddy. I don't see how it could be more explicit...




I think the takeaway is really that they already weren't penalizing people for this before and now (from 2019) they've liberalized it even further. To expect a penalty at this point might be too far outside the realm of possibility.


If this type of advice is as common as many have said, the fact that there aren't frequent penalties probably says all that needs saying (i.e. the rules people and pros really don't care about it). My only gripe is that if that's the case, why even have the rule anymore.


Exactly


Two girls were DQ'd from LPGA Q school when Kristina Kim blew them in for the exact same thing. I think it was two years ago at the most. Don't have a rule if you aren't going to enforce it.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2023, 11:21:33 AM »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2023, 12:25:39 PM »
I will say that even though I don't really like the rule, I do find it disappointing that the pros seem to act the way they do about it. I always hated the way it made me talk around various occurrences to fellow competitors, but I always followed the rules.


But it put me in a mind as to the motivation behind the rule and why the pros seem to disregard it so often. Thus far there has been some disagreement as to how useful the information is, but the discussion has always come from the idea that the information is helpful (or at least believed to be helpful) and the rule sought to keep players from helping one another. But the language of the rule points mainly to influence and influence can be help or hurt. Now this is a bit of a psychological leap, but if the players at the top levels of the game have gotten it in their heads that the true purpose of the rule is to keep people from using bad advice to trick competitors into mistakes, then they might have convinced themselves that helpful/truthful advice is fine or at most neutral and not worth worrying about.


Then comes the question of why such an anachronistic sort of tradition would continue. If those of us who think the information is all but useless are right, why bother saying anything? In reality that's a valid point, but these kinds of professional courtesies or traditions are fairly common. I remember seeing multiple tall buildings under construction with pine trees on top. Are those serving any real purpose? Or smashing a bottle of champagne on a new ship hull, or any number of other things in this vein.


I'm happy to have these ideas shot down, now I find I just want to understand a little better why this stuff happens, because it doesn't make much sense from where I sit.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jim O’Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2023, 12:47:06 PM »
;D


I was caddying in a Philadelphia PGA Event as a 15 year old when one of the other players in the group hit his ball in a large hazard at Woodcrest CC In NJ (Flynn 1929).  It was a large red staked area and we were all looking for the ball as you sometime could hit it from the creek bank. My player Tim DeBaufre looked over way to the left and saw I had left his bag in a dry spot in the hazard (note he hadn't hit it in there)   He looked at me pointed and said , you know that's a one shot penalty for me.


They have since changed that silly rule but man did I feel like a loser. To his credit he patted me on the back on the next hole and said no worries , now you know!


Great guy ....never forget him
Thanks Archie for that story, life lessons don't have to come with tongue lashings. Kudos to Mr. DeBaufre.
Ibid.

Fantastic story. First class of DeBaufre.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2023, 12:49:51 PM »
I'd much rather they gave Cantlay and Bennett (maybe others) a penalty for slow play -- that's an area that The Master's could/should lead in.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2023, 01:01:08 PM »
I'd much rather they gave Cantlay and Bennett (maybe others) a penalty for slow play -- that's an area that The Master's could/should lead in.


Why?
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -


Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2023, 05:04:36 PM »
This article mentions turmoil in the rules ranks, and else-where.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/a-penalty-that-seems-to-have-been-disregarded-chatter-continues-on-masters-ruling-with-brooks-koepka-and-caddie/ar-AA19H2en?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=03dc3d04195f4cf9a5a2e0d081404e91&ei=14




I feel like that's a pretty one-sided article (I'm glad to have read it though). Again, if it's as common and well-known as everyone (including the pro-penalty people in the article) says it is, that's more an argument to get rid of the rule than it is to have penalized Brooks. The previous example of the penalty being enforced was 2007, and that player called it on himself!


Still  leaves me curious about the psychology of the situation as I asked previously. Definitely weird.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2023, 05:06:40 PM »
Was I the only one who noticed that in Brooks's media interview on Sunday evening, someone asked a question about his shot over the green on #6, and he referred to the 7-iron Jon Rahm had just hit and come up short with, and yet he went over the green trying to hit a 3/4 seven iron. 


Thankfully, no one asked how he knew!  :-X


Maybe Rahm deliberately took something off his shot to deke Brooks, although doing so and missing way short was at best an overcorrection.  Or maybe they were sharing info [quietly] most of the day, and the swirling wind just fooled them.  They certainly had plenty of time to share.  There was hardly a hole where they didn't wait on Cantlay.


I know there are quite a few of you who are going to cry "rules are rules" until we're all in our graves, and I understand why.  But this is a bullshit rule, because it is routinely violated, and indeed never enforced except when they want to.  That's the way authoritarian countries work . . . there are rules against everything, and they are selectively enforced only to punish whom the authorities wish to punish.  And unfortunately, I do notice many things in America starting to go in that direction.


It reminds me of the Pine Tar rule in baseball, which was in the rule book but seldom enforced, until it was deemed unfair to enforce it against George Brett hitting a game-winning HR, at which point it was rescinded for good.  Was that a good thing?  Probably yes . . . you don't want the results on the field overturned by the officials.  Was it right by the rules of the day?  Absolutely not, but few complained because of whom it was enforced against.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2023, 06:29:22 PM »
Was I the only one who noticed that in Brooks's media interview on Sunday evening, someone asked a question about his shot over the green on #6, and he referred to the 7-iron Jon Rahm had just hit and come up short with, and yet he went over the green trying to hit a 3/4 seven iron.
He probably just looked in his bag, or otherwise saw the club Jon was using. Which is completely legal, as you're getting the information for yourself by observation, and not doing anything to another player's equipment (moving a towel) to gather it.

But this is a bullshit rule, because it is routinely violated
So is speeding a bullshit law because it is routinely violated? Or whatever people do to cheat on their taxes? Or countless other rules that are violated… just throw them out because they're routinely violated? And… this rule is about giving advice, so is the whole rule about giving advice "bullshit" or just the part about saying "Hey, buddy, I hit a 5I there if that helps you?"

That's the way authoritarian countries work
Or, you know, rules of a sport…  :)
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2023, 06:35:15 PM »
I would argue that slow play is not a bullshit rule that is almost always ignored and it was enforced once by ANGC in a bullshit way. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2023, 06:40:29 PM »
TD has a point, in the fact that speed limits are usually set by opening a road and observing how fast the first day of cars goes.  IF most golfers ignore the rule, then it should probably change.  As the (adapted to golf) old saying goes, "Golfers ignore rules that ignore golfers."  (It is an old design mantra really, that goes, "Golfers ignore designs that ignore golfers.....In building architecture it could be, "People ignore buildings that ignore people."


If they wanted to they could change the advice rule.  As TD's example shows, there is no guarantee that knowing your opponent used a 7 iron will result in you making a perfect swing and choosing the right club.  In fact, it could also reintroduce some gamesmanship that might spice things up, although the tour was moving away from that kind of stuff to a more "gentlemen's game."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brooks Keopka and his caddie giving advice
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2023, 06:42:36 PM »
I know it’s legal to look into another player’s bag to determine what club they hit but it seems at odds with the spirit of the rule. A glance is different than blatantly gawking.




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