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Anthony Butler

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Green Speeds - 1977
« on: April 02, 2023, 01:49:25 PM »
These stimpmeter readings came from a picture that was posted on one of the golf-related accounts I follow on Instagram. They appear to have been printed in a magazine somewhere in the last few years.

Re-typing them seems easier that figuring out how to post the original image...

Green Speed Readings from 1977
Augusta National - 7'11"
Congressional - 6'4"
Cypress Pt. - 7'8"
Harbor Town - 5'1"
Medinah - 7'8"
Merion - 6'4"
Oakland Hills - 8'5"
Oakmont - 9'8"
Pine Valley - 7'4"
Pinehurst #2 - 6'10"
San Francisco GC - 7'2"
Shinnecock Hills - 7'2"
Winged Foot - 7'5"


They all seem pretty slow compared to today's speeds. I've played most of these courses from about 1990 onwards and all greens were probably a foot and half faster than stated here, and I imagine for US Open or Masters play at least 2'6" faster.

As far as increasing the challenge of the course, professional putting stats do not appear to have gotten worse in the last 40 years, although there has been advances through new putting strokes that work better on faster greens and high MOI putters.  Stopping it near the hole from the short side of the green has probably increased in difficulty.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2023, 11:03:37 AM by Anthony Butler »
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Bryan Izatt

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2023, 03:11:10 PM »



Here's an article from 2018 that gives a historical perspective of green speeds.  The ones you posted look consistent.  The Oakmont one from 1977 appears to be for member play.


https://gcmonline.com/course/environment/news/green-speed-history




V. Kmetz

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2023, 03:12:04 PM »
Anecdotally, I can second that WFW number (7.5")...several years ago now on a rainy day, we went touring the unfinished new maint building and got in a conversation with parties in the know... only difference is that it was said to be from 1976, when the first Stimp was ever applied to the course.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

mike_malone

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2023, 03:15:21 PM »
So “speed” is comparative. I have seen similar data. Dave Staebler , a member of Rolling Green and a USGA guy, presented this to our club a few years ago.



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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2023, 04:24:08 PM »
The image came from McKellar magazine, I believe. Don’t think it’s any surprise that competition greens ran in the 7’s back then.

Padraig Dooley

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2023, 05:56:54 PM »
I've seen the photo of the green speeds posted very regularly. I have a hard time believing them.
How could Harbour Town have a green speed of 5 foot 1 inch?
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Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2023, 09:31:50 AM »

That picture has been around for a long time and when I initially saw it, I had a difficult time believing the numbers on it. Although after I thought about it, it really isn't that unbelievable. Mower technology is in a completely different league now with the quality and consistency of cut. For example back then a greens mower may have had 7 blades, whereas now 14 is common, so it is essentially double cutting as it travels and that's before considering that the reel speeds are greater now too. The mowers now are heavier so you get more roll, groomers & brushes are available to reduce grain, we have powered rollers and they are just some examples on maintaining the surface. The turf varieties now are infinitely more dense and bred to mow at heights that could not be believed back then, and advances in aeration equipment, irrigation, greens construction etc all contribute to the turf being able to withstand lower heights and more aggressive management. I'm going to guess that Harbor Towns lower number is probably due to it being bermudagrass - a quick search says that #2 used bentgrass back then, which would explain why it was higher.


Last year I wrote an article about the stimpmeter and the quality of the information it gives (its the last section of the link below). The issue is that all the stimpmeter really measures is distance - which isn't speed. It is really a device for measuring consistency across a course (which incidentally was why it was designed in the first place) but not different courses - as there are too many variables for it to be consistent from property to property. Rollout should really be the measurement as it is the perceived version of speed. Personally I think it is how the ball travels off the stimpmeter ie on shorter turf it bounces and accelerates as it hits the turf so is travelling faster when it loses momentum and starts to slow down, making it appear to be gradually slowing from a higher speed - think of it as a bell curve of acceleration - than on longer turf, where the tip of the stimpmeter sits into the canopy a little so there is no bounce and the ball is constantly deaccelerating from when it hits the turf, although it travels the same overall distance due to the initial force from the roll down the stimpmeter. Think of it as a linear deacceleration where the perception is that it didn't "rollout" as it just consistently rolled to a stop. I'm no physicist so am probably way off, but the fact you can have the same stimpmeter reading but a very different "rollout" highlights its biggest flaw. A device like a pinball launcher would be better it would be a linear force applied to the ball, although the USGAs new ball looks like it might be the solution as its gyroscopes can measure the acceleration and speed as it rolls.




https://www.golfdom.com/musings-from-the-ledge-mr-stimpy-isnt-a-liar-but/

« Last Edit: April 03, 2023, 09:38:05 AM by Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG »
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Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2023, 03:17:56 PM »

Mower technology is in a completely different league now with the quality and consistency of cut. For example back then a greens mower may have had 7 blades, whereas now 14 is common, so it is essentially double cutting as it travels and that's before considering that the reel speeds are greater now too.

To your point, It appears that improved mower technology has had the greatest impact on bermuda greens. Combined with the new bermuda strains having smaller leaf size, these greens can now be cut to a similar height as bent greens - which takes away a lot of the grain that previously influenced the break and speed of putts. 
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John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2023, 03:36:40 PM »
These stimpmeter readings came from a picture that was posted on one of the golf-related accounts I follow on Instagram. They appear to have been printed in a magazine somewhere in the last few years.

Re-typing them seems easier that figuring out how to post the original image...

Green Speed Readings from 1977
Augusta National - 7'11"
Congressional - 6'4"
Cypress Pt. - 7'8"
Harbor Town - 5'1"
Medinah - 7'8"
Merion - 6'4"
Oakland Hills - 8'5"
Oakmont - 9'8"
Pine Valley - 7'4"
Pinehurst #2 - 6'10"
San Francisco GC - 7'2"
Shinnecock Hills - 7'2"
Winged Foot - 7'5"


They all seem pretty slow compared to today's speeds. I've played most of these courses from about 1990 onwards and all greens were probably a foot and half faster than stated here, and I imagine for US Open or Masters play at least 2'6" faster.

As far as increasing the challenge of the course, professional putting stats do not appear to have gotten worse in the last 40 years, although there has been advances through new putting strokes that work better on faster greens and high MOI putters.  Stopping it near the hole from the short side of the green has probably increased in difficulty.
I'm guessing it's safe to say that at the higher end clubs today's fairways stimp higher than the green speeds listed above.

Jason Topp

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2023, 10:11:37 AM »
If you watch replays of events from this era, putting was very different - much more wrist hinge and many misses from 18 inches.  It appears to me that the slower greens increase the risk that a short putt will be missed.

Tom Dunne

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2023, 11:12:55 AM »
Maybe in "internet time" this photo is old, but it was published in McKellar #5 in the summer of 2021, as part of a longer architecture feature by Mike Clayton. The magazine is not hard to find.




Kalen Braley

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2023, 11:21:50 AM »
If you watch replays of events from this era, putting was very different - much more wrist hinge and many misses from 18 inches.  It appears to me that the slower greens increase the risk that a short putt will be missed.


I've got to think it was because the slower greens were more bumpy.

P.S  I've been told they exist but I've yet to see a green that stimps at 7 or less that wasn't plinko-ish

Anthony Butler

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2023, 02:46:54 PM »
If you watch replays of events from this era, putting was very different - much more wrist hinge and many misses from 18 inches.  It appears to me that the slower greens increase the risk that a short putt will be missed.
Perhaps this explains Tom Watsons putting slump in the late 80s.

He hardly missed from inside 5ft from '77-'84 and everything went into the hole at ramming speed - taking the bumps and grain out of the equation.


When the greens speed up and your miss ends up further away from the hole than your last putt, it puts some different thoughts in your head.
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Steve Lang

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2023, 08:44:56 PM »
 8)  Have to wonder what the green speed was during Doug Sanders famous short miss in the '70 Open at TOC???
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Donnie Beck

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Re: Green Speeds - 1977
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2023, 01:33:33 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 01:37:40 PM by Donnie Beck »