2nd course at Augusta National

[Ben Stephens]

Just seen Golf Digest article regarding a 2nd course at Augusta National - not sure if its come 2 days too early? 

click on link below:

Could Augusta National's second course actually happen? An inside look at the club's future plans

[Cal Seifert]

Coore and Crenshaw must be the betting favorites here.

[Tim Leahy]

Here's your chance to make a pitch TD. What would you do in the spirit of Bobby Jones and MacKenzie? 
Looking at the satellite view it doesn't look like there is too much room for 18. What about an additional 9 holes?

[Brad Tufts]

Coore and Crenshaw must be the betting favorites here.

2035 or 2040 or whenever they get going is a while from now for these gents, unfortunately.

[Tom_Doak]

I would be surprised if they did it.


They have kind of the same problem that Sand Hills has, or Muirfield.  There's plenty of room for another course, and the land is excellent . . . you could argue the dunesland north of Muirfield is a better piece of ground than Muirfield.


But would they really build one of the top ten courses in the world?  Pretty unlikely!  And, if they did build something great, would that not to some degree undermine the stature of the original course?  [If it's so damned good, how could they build something just as good next door?]


The bar for success at Augusta would be very very high for anyone to get over.  And no chairman would like to be seen as trying and failing.

[Jeff Schley]

[If it's so damned good, how could they build something just as good next door?]

If the ground is good; in the hands of a skilled architect couldn't they create a great course? Take out history and majors and reputation, wouldn't a new course on good ground have a shot at being outstanding?  Isn't that what architects dream of, great pieces of ground? Maybe not top 10 legends, but any top 100 course is great.

[Mark Pearce]

I would be surprised if they did it.


They have kind of the same problem that Sand Hills has, or Muirfield.  There's plenty of room for another course, and the land is excellent . . . you could argue the dunesland north of Muirfield is a better piece of ground than Muirfield.


But would they really build one of the top ten courses in the world?  Pretty unlikely!  And, if they did build something great, would that not to some degree undermine the stature of the original course?  [If it's so damned good, how could they build something just as good next door?]


The bar for success at Augusta would be very very high for anyone to get over.  And no chairman would like to be seen as trying and failing.

You have posted similarly regarding Muirfield in the past, and it's spot on.  The other reason you have given in relation to Muirfield, which I think stacks up equally well for Augusta, is "why bother".  Two private members clubs, with limited membership and with more money than they know what to do with.  Why does either need a second course?  It's not as if the courses are difficult to get on for members.  Or that either wants, or needs, to enlarge the membership.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I would be surprised if they did it.


They have kind of the same problem that Sand Hills has, or Muirfield.  There's plenty of room for another course, and the land is excellent . . . you could argue the dunesland north of Muirfield is a better piece of ground than Muirfield.


But would they really build one of the top ten courses in the world?  Pretty unlikely!  And, if they did build something great, would that not to some degree undermine the stature of the original course?  [If it's so damned good, how could they build something just as good next door?]


The bar for success at Augusta would be very very high for anyone to get over.  And no chairman would like to be seen as trying and failing.

You have posted similarly regarding Muirfield in the past, and it's spot on.  The other reason you have given in relation to Muirfield, which I think stacks up equally well for Augusta, is "why bother".  Two private members clubs, with limited membership and with more money than they know what to do with.  Why does either need a second course?  It's not as if the courses are difficult to get on for members.  Or that either wants, or needs, to enlarge the membership.

Agreed with both of you. Not only that, I think that - almost counterintuitively - an inferior course (a clear no.2) could even take away from the standing of the original.

[Charlie Goerges]

I would be surprised if they did it.


They have kind of the same problem that Sand Hills has, or Muirfield.  There's plenty of room for another course, and the land is excellent . . . you could argue the dunesland north of Muirfield is a better piece of ground than Muirfield.


But would they really build one of the top ten courses in the world?  Pretty unlikely!  And, if they did build something great, would that not to some degree undermine the stature of the original course?  [If it's so damned good, how could they build something just as good next door?]


The bar for success at Augusta would be very very high for anyone to get over.  And no chairman would like to be seen as trying and failing.

You have posted similarly regarding Muirfield in the past, and it's spot on.  The other reason you have given in relation to Muirfield, which I think stacks up equally well for Augusta, is "why bother".  Two private members clubs, with limited membership and with more money than they know what to do with.  Why does either need a second course?  It's not as if the courses are difficult to get on for members.  Or that either wants, or needs, to enlarge the membership.

Agreed with both of you. Not only that, I think that - almost counterintuitively - an inferior course (a clear no.2) could even take away from the standing of the original.

I agree Ally that it is a perceptual and political problem in the club. I don't think an inferior #2 would detract from the the standing of the original, I do think it would detract from the standing of whatever chairman was in charge when it happened. I think that might be enough to keep a chairman from risking it.

[Mike Hendren]

In my opinion there is no better course in the world than Augusta National Golf Club’s.  There are likely a handful of peers.  Using the old 10 rounds split, I would go 10-0 in favor of the current course regardless of what new course could be built - sight unseen.  I continue to believe ANGC somehow gets short shrift on this site.


Then again this is likely an early April’s Fool joke.

[Cal Carlisle]

In my opinion there is no better course in the world than Augusta National Golf Club’s.  There are likely a handful of peers.  Using the old 10 rounds split, I would go 10-0 in favor of the current course regardless of what new course could be built - sight unseen.  I continue to believe ANGC somehow gets short shrift on this site.


Then again this is likely an early April’s Fool joke.

But's still March.....

[Charlie Goerges]

Then again this is likely an early April’s Fool joke.

The link to the Golf Digest article is on the other thread, so I'm inclined to believe it's not. That said, the second course is one of the more outlandish (to me) ideas in the article, and essentially requires them to buy a large section of neighborhood to turn into the area of the course and even more additional parking and accommodation. An expensive and certainly decades-long process.

[Adam G]

The Shotgun Start did an interesting interview with Joel Beal, who wrote the article.


Joel said is he didn't want to have a second course be part of the article, but everyone kept bringing it up so much he felt like he had to. He said one prominent architect knew what land it would be on and roughly what he/she would do even though he/she hadn't been approached. This article took 14 months and interviews with over 70 people to report, and he felt it would be doing a disservice to those interviews if the second course wasn't a focus. So at the very least a lot of people at and in the orbit of the club are talking about it.

[Steve_Roths]

Mr. Doak - in regard to the land around Muirfield.  Have you ever sketched a routing for what could be their second course?

Just curious if you spend time in the air sketching out solutions to those puzzles.

[Charlie Goerges]

The Shotgun Start did an interesting interview with Joel Beal, who wrote the article.


Joel said is he didn't want to have a second course be part of the article, but everyone kept bringing it up so much he felt like he had to. He said one prominent architect knew what land it would be on and roughly what he/she would do even though he/she hadn't been approached. This article took 14 months and interviews with over 70 people to report, and he felt it would be doing a disservice to those interviews if the second course wasn't a focus. So at the very least a lot of people at and in the orbit of the club are talking about it.

That's pretty fascinating. The only thing about a second course that makes any logical sense to me would be (as mentioned on the other thread) using it to host part of the ANWA tournament. But if that many people are talking about it on the inside, it must make some kind of sense. I'd just always heard that the club sort of had to limit member time on site and if you're already limiting it, what use is there to the members of a second course since (as mentioned by Mike) everyone's probably going to go 10-0 for the original course? I'd love to know what I'm missing here, what others think (from a justification standpoint).

[Ben Hollerbach]

That's pretty fascinating. The only thing about a second course that makes any logical sense to me would be (as mentioned on the other thread) using it to host part of the ANWA tournament. But if that many people are talking about it on the inside, it must make some kind of sense. I'd just always heard that the club sort of had to limit member time on site and if you're already limiting it, what use is there to the members of a second course since (as mentioned by Mike) everyone's probably going to go 10-0 for the original course? I'd love to know what I'm missing here, what others think (from a justification standpoint).

My Hypothesis is the 2nd course could be configured as their "summer" course. So the ANWA would mark the opening of the 2nd course for the year, with the 1st course closing down for the summer shortly after the Masters.

[Charlie Goerges]

That's pretty fascinating. The only thing about a second course that makes any logical sense to me would be (as mentioned on the other thread) using it to host part of the ANWA tournament. But if that many people are talking about it on the inside, it must make some kind of sense. I'd just always heard that the club sort of had to limit member time on site and if you're already limiting it, what use is there to the members of a second course since (as mentioned by Mike) everyone's probably going to go 10-0 for the original course? I'd love to know what I'm missing here, what others think (from a justification standpoint).

My Hypothesis is the 2nd course could be configured as their "summer" course. So the ANWA would mark the opening of the 2nd course for the year, with the 1st course closing down for the summer shortly after the Masters.

It would make perfect sense if ANGC were a more typical club, but are a lot of the members clamoring to hang around in the summer to not play the original course?

[Tim Martin]

That's pretty fascinating. The only thing about a second course that makes any logical sense to me would be (as mentioned on the other thread) using it to host part of the ANWA tournament. But if that many people are talking about it on the inside, it must make some kind of sense. I'd just always heard that the club sort of had to limit member time on site and if you're already limiting it, what use is there to the members of a second course since (as mentioned by Mike) everyone's probably going to go 10-0 for the original course? I'd love to know what I'm missing here, what others think (from a justification standpoint).

My Hypothesis is the 2nd course could be configured as their "summer" course. So the ANWA would mark the opening of the 2nd course for the year, with the 1st course closing down for the summer shortly after the Masters.

Ben-I read the article and didn’t get any sense that ANGC would be open in the Summer or change the schedule that seemingly has become etched in stone. Finally I don’t see the benefit the club would derive from such a change.
 

[Niall C]

While I agree with Tom D, Mark and Ally that there really isn't any upside to developing a second 18 hole course that would simply stand in pale comparison to the existing course, would it not be an idea to maybe design say a 12 or 14 hole course ? Maybe one with no par 5's. After all Warren Buffet and Bill Gates aren't getting any younger and maybe they'd quite fancy a short course.


To spice it up maybe use some of MacKenzie's original green designs. No ? Oh well, just a thought. 


Niall

[Ben Hollerbach]

Ben-I read the article and didn’t get any sense that ANGC would be open in the Summer or change the schedule that seemingly has become etched in stone. Finally I don’t see the benefit the club would derive from such a change.

I can't disagree, it's just a hunch.

Augusta has become quite good a making large changes/additions with little public notice. 10 years ago did anyone suspect that today Augusta National would host one of the largest women's amateur tournaments in the country the week before the Masters?

[Ronald Montesano]

I suspect that these members already have a summer course somewhere else. If you are a local member, you are at ACC or some other club in the area.

I remember, decades back, hearing that members of ANGC don't actually play ANGC all that often. Play it too much and you might receive an invitation to discuss your prolific play. Being a member of ANGC is not about the golf.

ANGC has a course for the distance-challenged members. It's the short course. Also, I suspect that the older members don't really care what score they are shooting, nor which bets they are winning. From the membership perspective, the second course would be odd, considering the infrastructure they've put in place.

So ... the only reason for a second course would be to enhance what is already in place, for the female amateurs and professionals. I'm certain that ANGC would like to host all three rounds of the ANWA at the club, but understands that the course would get three times the tournament play it currently does, a week before the big event.

If ANGC builds a second course, I believe it would serve to host the ANWA and someday, the big event for the women. I don't believe that the Dinah Shore is cemented as a major for the LPGA, so if ANGC came out with a proposal to host an event in May, it would be received quite well by the LPGA and LET. There are three events in May of this year: San Francisco, New Jersey, and Las Vegas. That leaves an available week, and why not celebrate the first major of the year in May at ANGC, then the PGA in June, then the US Open in July, the Open in August, and the Evian in September? Quite the five-month run.

Edit 1: Angela Moser gets at least co-design role;
Edit 2: Course #2 allows the women to write their own story, so that they are not forever compared to what men have done in the "other" tournament.

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Doak - in regard to the land around Muirfield.  Have you ever sketched a routing for what could be their second course?

Just curious if you spend time in the air sketching out solutions to those puzzles.

I have never done stuff like that.  I put all of my work effort into things that we are building or are going to build.  The routing is the most valuable piece of the puzzle . . . if you put it out there for free, you're doing yourself a disservice.

[Andrew Harvie]

Wouldn't it be crazy if they restored Mackenzie's Augusta a la Lido next door and had the Masters Tournament Course and the Mackenzie Heritage Course or something? Now that would be quite something.

[Tom_Doak]

Wouldn't it be crazy if they restored Mackenzie's Augusta a la Lido next door and had the Masters Tournament Course and the Mackenzie Heritage Course or something? Now that would be quite something.

Yes.  Trying to "restore" the back nine of Augusta on another piece of land would indeed be crazy. 


I suppose they could afford to do that much earthwork, if they sat on several years' worth of tournament revenues.

[Thomas Dai]

Pondering ahead ... Augusta taking over from St Andrews as 'The Home of Golf"?
Or is that the desire in Pinehurst, Ponte Vedra Beach etc?
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