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TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 09:57:53 AM »
"One of the many myths that certain posters repeatedly return to is that CBM turned his back on the golf architecture and the game in the 1920's.   Here is the latest version . . .

 
Quote from: TEPaul on September 26, 2010, 10:18:46 PM
I believe you're right about that. In the 1920s and on it appears Macdonald was not willing to get involved in much of what was going on in golf and architecture at the time. Those so-called "agronomy letters" are a very good information source to confirm that in a number of ways. They even mention his book (which would become "Scotland's Gift Golf") that he had apparently been intending to write for quite some time. It seems when he finally went to Bermuda and wrote it (1926) that was pretty much the end for his involvement in golf and architecture other than with improving NGLA.


So far as I can tell there is very little if any factual support for this claim. Sure there are vague references to a single snippy comment someone made about CBM in an Ag letter, but nothing at all to support the claim that he turned his back on the game.  So far as I can tell, it is nothing but unsubstantiated gossip.  And the known record certainly doesn't support it.  Here is a partial synopsis of what CBM was doing in Golf Architecture during the 1920's - the period during which CBM was supposedly not willing to get involved in golf or architecture . . .

1920-1921. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Ocean Links.
1921-1922. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Gibson Island Club.
1922-1923. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Creek Club.
1922  Macdonald and Raynor designed and built a practice course for Eddie Moore.
1922 Macdonald and Raynor designed and built 9 hole course for H.P. Witney.
1922-1923. Macdonald and Raynor helped plan Women's National Golf & Tennis Club.
1922-1924. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Mid Ocean.
1924-1925. Macdonald, Raynor, and Banks designed and built Deepdale.
1923-1926. Macdonald, Raynor, and Banks designed and built Yale University Golf Club.
1928.  Macdonald published Scotland's Gift.
1930.  Macdonald turned 75 years old.

Maybe it is just me, but that seems like a pretty productive decade for a guy who was supposedly not willing to get involved in architecture, especially when one considers that he was an amateur with a real job, and never accepted payment for any of his design work.   And he kept working on NGLA.  I'll bet there are some working designers today who would like to have an off decade like that!  Imagine what CBM might have accomplished if he hadn't turned his back on the game.   Was he supposed to go on providing free designing services into his 80s?  

As for other matters relating to Golf, NGLA hosted the first Walker Cup Matches in 1922 (the second was played at St. Andrews) and hosted the participants at NGLA's famed invitational tournament in 1924.  This annual tournament kept going strong.   CBM was also actively involved in issues relating to the rules and equipment and was corresponding about these matters with H.H. Hilton, Bernard Darwin, John Low, and W.C. Fownes in 1927-1928.  And these are just what he mentions.  Whatever else he was doing, he certainly hadn't become a recluse."




What's referred to is not myth.

There is no question C.B. Macdonald was a true force in American architecture but just as importantly, or perhaps more so, in American golf administration.

To me the man is fascinating for everything he did but even more fascinating because he really was a complex and complicated man on some central issues but also personally.

And I should not refer to the approximately 2,000 to 3,000 letters between Piper and Oakley, the Wilson brothers and others as the "agronomy letters" because they are certainly much more than that (Wayne Morrison and I first referred to them as the "agronomy letters" when we first copied some of them about 7-8 years ago while doing research on William Flynn at the USGA in Far Hills). They are actually the entire evolution of American research on golf agronomy with the United States Deptartment of Agriculture which culminated in the setting up of the USGA Green Section. To do that the USGA appointed a committee known as the USGA Green Committee and Alan Wilson chaired it for a number of years.

The USGA Green Section may not have been something CBM agreed with for various reasons as he refused to serve on it or get involved with it when asked in the late teens, giving as his reason that he was basically done with golf at that point.

In the end of 1924 the USGA Green Committee scheduled a very important meeting in New York City to discuss the creation of a corporation that was to fund the USGA Green Section and Clarence Piper made the proposal to ask Macdonald to serve as the special chairman of that meeting. After some consideration and correspondence between Wilson and Piper and Oakley and the president of the USGA, Wynant Vanderpool, it was decided that might be too dangerous to do.

Their comments about Macdonald were surely anything but 'snippy' or gossip, that's for sure. They were involved in something very important and I would say their comments about Macdonald seemed realistic, practical and quite concerned and solicitous. But ultimately they decided to ask him to chair the meeting would be just too dangerous, and they gave their reasons for making that decision.

These are the facts, but I can understand there are probably a half dozen or so on this website who would prefer that these kinds of facts be kept in the closet when it comes to Macdonald.

Personally, I don't think any of them detract from CBM's reputation in golf architecture or golf at all; they are simply the complications nd complexities in the life of a truly fascinating man. The thing to consider is if he had not had them he may've been even more central than he was and if that had been true American golf very well might've been somewhat different than it actually became.

To me that is not a subject that should be avoided!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 10:05:36 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2010, 04:55:42 PM »
Once again, nothing but unsubstantiated gossip, and having nothing to do with the original claim.  It has been repeatedly claimed that CBM turned his back on golf, particularly golf course architecture.   The timeline above speaks for itself to that issue.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2010, 07:06:13 PM »
Tom Paul - Thanks for that last post.  Very interesting :)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2010, 10:26:29 PM »
Tom Paul - Thanks for that last post.  Very interesting. Did you conduct that research before or after you urinated CBM's grave?

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2010, 10:53:04 PM »
Dan:

You are very welcome. I was just waiting for a response from a credible respondent and since you offered one, if you would like I would be willing to produce the quotations from the Wilson brothers I only referred to in the post you responded to. They surely do make one think about all this, to say the least.

Again, it is not my intention to in any way denigrate Macdonald or his substantial and impressive reputation both now and back then. Personally, the man just fascinates me and always has, and particularly since he really was such a complex and complicated man. However, to me that only serves to add to the fascinating and perhaps glorious tapestry of what he did and what he was or far more interesting still, what he may've ultimately been or become.

If some on here wish to only look at some of what he was and just some of what his contemporaries said or wrote about him then that's their interest and their choice but it isn't mine and I hope it isn't yours. I feel that with a man of his stature in American golf and architecture one should look carefully into the whole man and not just some part of him.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 11:42:52 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2010, 01:19:38 AM »
Reply #28 is unfortunate.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 10:05:56 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2010, 10:54:29 PM »
“Once again, nothing but unsubstantiated gossip, and having nothing to do with the original claim.  It has been repeatedly claimed that CBM turned his back on golf, particularly golf course architecture.   The timeline above speaks for itself to that issue.”





What I was referring to in Post #25 is not gossip and it’s not unsubstantiated. The following is part of it, not the extent of it. There is other evidence as the 1920s proceeded that CBM was having some problems and/or was withdrawing significantly and it includes CBM severing his substantial ties with The Creek Club in 1926 (he was actually the president of the Kellenworth Corporation that owned the land and leased it to the club) while using as his reasons for doing it that he wanted to retire to Bermuda to write his book. But the following is one of the first of a series of correspondence that indicates he had and was having problems with some of his contemporaries in golf and apparently vice versa and that he had significantly withdrawn even though I surely do detect a sympathic tone with some of them in these correspondences.  



To Wit:


                                                                        United States Golf Association
                                                                            766-788 Broad Street
                                                                                            Newark, N.J.

                                                                                                                                                                        December 28, 1920


Hugh I. Wilson, Esq.,
321 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania


My Dear Hugh:-

               I have received acceptance from practically all of the tentative committee suggested for the new Green Committee Section of the Association.
               Charlie Macdonald has refused to serve, putting his refusal on the ground that he has practically dropped out of active golf. If you think it wise, I am sure I can persuade him to serve in the formation of the Committee whether or not he resigns afterward………

                                                                           Cordially yours,

                                                                                  Wynant D. Vanderpool

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 11:03:16 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2010, 11:11:33 PM »
Dear Dr. Oakley:-

………….
        In regard to Macdonald, I told him (Wynant Vanderpool) I thought we had done all that was necessary and that we could probably pick out a good man for the New York district but we had better look it over thoroughly before doing so. Frankly, I think it is most satisfactory the way it turned out.
                                                               
                                                                                                     Yours very truly,

                                                                                                             Hugh I. Wilson


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2010, 02:27:03 AM »
At 65 years old CBM didn't want to serve on yet another committee.   He wanted to take it easy in the Bahama's (where he would soon embark on yet another design.)  So what?

If this is all there is, then what have you guys been gossiping about for the past decade??

Surely this isn't your grounds for years of gossip about how CBM had become incredibly bitter toward all things golf, and turned his back on the game and on golf course architecture? This cannot be the decade (or two) "architectural renunciation" which you so often refer?  Can it?

I didn't think you had much, but even I thought you must have had more than this.  Now I understand why facts never followed the endless gossip.  
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 02:31:54 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2010, 08:19:47 AM »
David Moriarty,

I think good old CBM was removing himself from "active" roles in golf.
As he got older, lost his powerbase at NGLA and elsewhere, as his influence waned, I think he retreated from the "active" golf world.

But, I think you're correct in that his tolerance to "serve" in official capacities had also waned.
I think we can all understand that.

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2010, 08:28:23 AM »
"Surely this isn't your grounds for years of gossip about how CBM had become incredibly bitter toward all things golf, and turned his back on the game and on golf course architecture? This cannot be the decade (or two) "architectural renunciation" which you so often refer?  Can it?
I didn't think you had much, but even I thought you must have had more than this.  Now I understand why facts never followed the endless gossip."  


Gossip?

This is contemporaneous material that rounds out and helps tell a complete story of a very important man's life in golf and architecture. The above is certainly not all of it if you've been under that presumption for a decade (or two) which apparently you have been. Or are you just into trying to create "meaningfully inaccurate" ;) icons by hiding facts?  This information is definitely not that hard to find.

You're quite the researcher/historian aren't you? Not until this morning did I come to find out that Bermuda is in the Bahamas.    ???

No, there's definitely more and it isn't gossip. Are you someone who's interested in the truth or aren't you? So far it sounds like you aren't. You say you are only interested in seeking the truth, right? Does that mean to you interested in seeking the truth about everyone other than Charles B. Macdonald?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 08:46:34 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2010, 10:32:18 AM »
TEPaul,

I think CBM grew weary of the fight.

He was used to his word being "The Gospel"

Since you like Tony Soprano's ilk,

The notion that "members",  and pezzonovante would question his designs, his ideas had to annoy him.
The notion that "members?, and pezzonovante could outvote him had to be distastefull.

I think you have to context his withdrawal with his retreat or fall from power, and if he couldn't lead, he surely wasn't going to follow.

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2010, 10:42:50 AM »
"TEPaul,
I think CBM grew weary of the fight."


Pat:

I'm quite sure of it and have said so for quite some time now but unfortunately to the screeches and howls of a few on here who seem to think I'm disrespecting CBM somehow even if it involves identifying the truth!  ;)

The real question to me is how early did it begin? And there is another aspect that apparently contributed which Alan Wilson once referred to in a letter as 'his malady.'

What do you suppose that meant, Patrick? I have a pretty good idea and I think it was something that wasn't all that uncommon back then in that particular world and crowd CBM hung out with.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2010, 10:46:12 AM »
TEPaul,

His "malady" could be the long term effects of alcohol.

Then again, I wonder if Wilson meant "malaise"

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2010, 10:52:04 AM »
Patrick:

If Alan Wilson meant malaise then why didn't he say that? Why did he say malady?

The next thing I know I'll have our in-house reinterpreter, David Moriarty, telling us all that even if Alan Wilson said malady it should be completely obvious to everyone that he had to have meant malaise or anything else but malady!  ;)

Some of you people are a real trip in your endless and bottomless ability to just speculate about things that were never said and never happened.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2010, 10:58:50 AM »
Patrick:

If Alan Wilson meant malaise then why didn't he say that? Why did he say malady?

If you look at the definition of "malady" and "malaise", they're not that different, so his choice could have been for a variety of reasons, including familiarity


The next thing I know I'll have our in-house reinterpreter, David Moriarty, telling us all that even if Alan Wilson said malady it should be completely obvious to everyone that he had to have meant malaise or anything else but malady!  ;)

I know what Wilson wrote, but, the distinction between "malady" and malaise" isn't substantive


Some of you people are a real trip in your endless and bottomless ability to just speculate about things that were never said and never happened.

TEPaul,

Would you deny that CBM entered into that phase in his life, a malaise ?

"malaise" depression, hermit like, retreating, depression, do you not see any connection ?


TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2010, 12:51:55 PM »
Pat:

No, I would certainly not deny that. Have you noticed I've mentioned it on here for quite some time now, like for some years? ;)

Frankly, I've always felt it would provide a great subject. I say that because I am the first to recognize that Charles Blair Macdonald definitely was in a position and early on to be perhaps the most powerful person American golf has ever known and that totally fascinates me for all kinds of interesting reasons.

But it was not really to be and my interest is to track it all back as early as possible and then take it forward in time to try to figure out what happened and why and with whom. I think his book (that you gave me in Oct 2002 by the way) has all the evidence for what transpired over the years and when one adds to that some of this correspondence I'm referring to one pretty much has some of the added details to it all.

And then when you add to that some of what I learned while at Swede's in Southampton the whole jigsaw puzzle  pretty much falls into a very logical and explainable order and progression.

But again, unfortunately there are a few on here who appear to prefer to leave some of the details in the closet. And to make matters worse they continue to accuse me of trying to denigrate CBM somehow. Nothing of the kind, the man actually totally fascinates me----warts and all.

Had CBM really gotten his way particularly with American golf administration early on and throughout the first decade, the teens and the 1920s, and really set the stage his way, can you imagine how it may've all been different over here?

You like dictators, don't you Patrick? Well, if so, Charles Blair Macdonald was definitely your man. But it was just not to be and I am totally fascinated in all the details of why.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2010, 01:36:53 PM »
TEPaul,

I have no problem with facts.  But I do have a problem with unsubstantiated gossip.

The facts you have thus far presented do not even begin to substantiate they years of gossip about how CBM abandoned the game in general and golf course design in particular.   

Patrick,

You too are slipping into this mode of making some pretty heady generalizations about CBM during this time period.   While I am sure you believe it, perhaps you will come forward with your support for your belief so we can decide for ourselves? 

Surely, looking at his record of involvement in various designs, one cannot say that he turned his back on golf course design in the 1920's. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2010, 01:43:31 PM »
"The facts you have thus far presented do not even begin to substantiate they years of gossip about how CBM abandoned the game in general and golf course design in particular."


As I said earlier today, the info posted this morning is just the beginning. You seem so impatient all the time but I suspect no matter how much of it there is or how relevent and contemporaneous it is there is very little hope or very little way you will ever accept it or learn anything from it.

It has been just crystal clear and for some years now that you have a true agenda on here and these kinds of facts are surely not part of your agenda. Thankfully more and more are seeing that now and responding.

You don't really want to learn anything on this subject---you just want to continue your adversialness on here and you want to continue to deny all the mistakes you made with your essay and your lack of process and how it involved Macdonald and Wilson no matter what it takes.

But the good news, in my opinion, is that even if it took some time you and your essay and your ongoing agenda has been thoroughly put through a peer review process on here and it has seemingly all been found seriously wanting. If any of it has any supporters, at this point, it seems to be down to only one now (as evidenced by your last remark to Patrick Mucci)!  ;)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 01:51:12 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2010, 04:24:49 PM »

Patrick,

You too are slipping into this mode of making some pretty heady generalizations about CBM during this time period.   While I am sure you believe it, perhaps you will come forward with your support for your belief so we can decide for ourselves? 

Surely, looking at his record of involvement in various designs, one cannot say that he turned his back on golf course design in the 1920's. 

David,

His level of active participation certainly diminished over time.

Whether he was content and confident enough to let Seth Raynor do his bidding, or losing interest in the details doesn't seem to matter.
I suspect it was a little of both.

But, I agree that CBM did NOT lose his interest in golf in the 20's, especially when you consider that he penned "Scotland's Gift" in 1928 and continued designing golf courses up through 1926..

A telling chapter in that book is the final chapter, "Rambling Thoughts"
He certainly seems to profess a LOVE for the game as of 1928

in 1926, He designed his last course, resigned from the "rules of golf" committee of the R&A after having served for 18 consecutive years.
He was 70 years old at that time.
He had done enough.
I KNOW exactly how he feels ;D

I think he felt that he had done enough and was growing weary of the exercise, thus his formal retreat begins.

He would live for another 11 years before passing in t 1939


TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2010, 05:27:15 PM »
Mr. Alan D. Wilson                                                                      October 18, 1924
   321 Walnut St.
      Philadelphia, Pa


Dear Alan:
   In regard to a chairman for the Green Section meeting at New York, I was wondering how the idea would appeal to you of inviting Mr. Charles B. Macdonald to be chairman. You know he has not been overly enthusiastic about the Green Section, at least outwardly. Of late years he has rather been left out of golf matters, and I have a hunch that he would be tickled to death to be chairman of this Green Section Meeting. The idea in the back of my head is that if he does come across it ought to help materially in getting funds for the Green Section, and I believe he will be glad to accept. I realize that it would be a somewhat bitter pill for some of the older men to swallow in view of the many undiplomatic, shall I say? things he has done. But I want you to consider this as a cold-blooded proposition, and if you feel like it I wish you would consult with Winnie Vanderpool and anyone else whom you think desirable. Please understand that this is purely a suggestion and a sort of Jesuitical proposition, because I believe the end will justify the means.
                                                                Very truly yours,

                                                                          Chairman


TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2010, 05:39:23 PM »
                                                                           Green Committee
                                                                                 of the
                                                                             United States Golf Association


Prof. C.V. Piper,
P.O. Box 313
Pa Ave Station
Washington, D.C.

   Or

C.A. Oakley


Dear Piper; or Oakley:-

…………….
   I have an interesting letter from Piper in regard to Charlie Macdonald as possible Chairman for the Green Section meeting in New York. I think it would be a fine idea to have him, if he would come and play ball; but there are two possibilities we would have to face. One, that he would come and not play ball, which would be very embarrassing for everyone concerned, and the other that he would be still further in the clutches of his malady, would fall by the wayside and not turn up at all. It looks to me a little dangerous, but it is a good thought and well worth thinking over…..”

                           Sincerely,

                              Alan Wilson
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 05:41:04 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2010, 05:49:04 PM »
Mr. Alan D. Wilson                                                                      October 18, 1924
   321 Walnut St.
      Philadelphia, Pa


Dear Alan:
   In regard to a chairman for the Green Section meeting at New York, I was wondering how the idea would appeal to you of inviting Mr. Charles B. Macdonald to be chairman. You know he has not been overly enthusiastic about the Green Section, at least outwardly. Of late years he has rather been left out of golf matters, and I have a hunch that he would be tickled to death to be chairman of this Green Section Meeting. The idea in the back of my head is that if he does come across it ought to help materially in getting funds for the Green Section, and I believe he will be glad to accept. I realize that it would be a somewhat bitter pill for some of the older men to swallow in view of the many undiplomatic, shall I say? things he has done. But I want you to consider this as a cold-blooded proposition, and if you feel like it I wish you would consult with Winnie Vanderpool and anyone else whom you think desirable. Please understand that this is purely a suggestion and a sort of Jesuitical proposition, because I believe the end will justify the means.
                                                                Very truly yours,

                                                                          Chairman


TEPaul,

This letter is strictly in the context of CBM's involvement with the USGA, in particular, the Green Section.

Circa  late 1924 early 1925 CBM was actively involved in the design of several courses, including The Creek, Deepdale, Oheka, and Mid-Ocean.

You're reading more into the letter than exists.
Being "left out of golf matters" seems to be a reference to the USGA, certainly it wasn't his design business  in which he remained active until 1926
 

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2010, 06:10:54 PM »
"Circa  late 1924 early 1925 CBM was actively involved in the design of several courses, including The Creek, Deepdale, Oheka, and Mid-Ocean."


Patrick:

What do YOU actually know about CBM's specific and actual involvement in any of the courses he was said to have been actively involved with? What do you actually know about his specific architectural involvement with The Creek Club for instance? How much time did he actually spend with Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow, St Louis, Yale, for instance and what specifically did he do with them compared to say Raynor? Was he ever even actually AT Old White before it's opening day? It seems the Greenbriar which has incredibly comprehensive records of all their guests and particularly the famous ones, is unsure if he ever was before Opening Day.

So what do you specifically know Patrick other than age old hearsay? Do you even know how long Macdonald worked on Wall Street? Do you even know how long he was on the USGA board or any of their committees? Do you know if he lived in New York City and if so where?

What do you really know about some of the details of his life including in golf architecture and golf administration? You've got a lot of opinions for sure but what really can you actually and factually back them up with other than to say you think you know or to use Moriarty's and MacWood's BS qualifiers----eg "It is my understanding.." or "As far as I know.."  which both of them generally follow with information they try to pass off as actual FACT?! ;)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 06:15:19 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: C.B. MacDonald was not that great...
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2010, 06:31:55 PM »
                                                                                                     October 20, 1924

Mr. W. D. Vanderpool,
766 Broad St.,
Newark, N.J.


Dear Wynnie:-

   ……….
   I am enclosing a letter of his (Piper) suggesting C.B. Mac D. as Chairman of the Green Section meeting and have written him today that it is a good thought but it seems to me a little dangerous in view of the present failings of Charlie. In a certain condition, he might come and just be a nuisance. In another condition, he might try to crab the meeting, which would be very embarrassing; and then he might not come at all. I am inclined to think it would be dangerous and even if he came, presided and was pleasant, I doubt it would do much good in the way Piper thinks, because I am afraid he would crab it all later on. My mind is entirely open on it, however, and I would be glad to know how it strikes you.

                                                                                                      Sincerely,

                                                                                                                            Alan Wilson