C.B. MacDonald was not that great...

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Circa  late 1924 early 1925 CBM was actively involved in the design of several courses, including The Creek, Deepdale, Oheka, and Mid-Ocean."

Patrick:

What do YOU actually know about CBM's specific and actual involvement in any of the courses he was said to have been actively involved with?

Probably as little as you.

What do you actually know about his specific architectural involvement with The Creek Club for instance?

Probably a little less than you.

How much time did he actually spend with Piping Rock,

I don't  have the time clock reeceipts.
But, I do know that his time was abbreviated vis a vis disputes

Sleepy Hollow, St Louis, Yale, for instance

That's totally irrelevant to this discussion since those courses came before and after the time frame we're referencing.

and what specifically did he do with them compared to say Raynor?

Since you don't know the answer, in what context would you judge my answer.

Was he ever even actually AT Old White before it's opening day?

Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand

It seems the Greenbriar which has incredibly comprehensive records of all their guests and particularly the famous ones, is unsure if he ever was before Opening Day.

Again, that's totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand

So what do you specifically know Patrick other than age old hearsay?

Do you mean like Wilson sailing to the UK prior to the design of Merion ?\

Do you even know how long Macdonald worked on Wall Street?

Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand

Do you even know how long he was on the USGA board or any of their committees?

Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand

Do you know if he lived in New York City and if so where?

Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand

What do you really know about some of the details of his life including in golf architecture and golf administration?

Again, that's totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
But, I do know what he himself penned in "Scotland's Gift" and from other sources.


You've got a lot of opinions for sure but what really can you actually and factually back them up with other than to say you think you know or to use Moriarty's and MacWood's BS qualifiers----eg
"It is my understanding.." or "As far as I know.."  which both of them generally follow with information they try to pass off as actual FACT?!

Do you want to continue to try to divert this thread with irrelevant questions or do you want to try to ascertain the facts and draw  prudent man conclusions based on those facts ?

The choice is yours

[Patrick_Mucci]

                                                                                                     October 20, 1924

Mr. W. D. Vanderpool,
766 Broad St.,
Newark, N.J.


Dear Wynnie:-

   ……….
   I am enclosing a letter of his (Piper) suggesting C.B. Mac D. as Chairman of the Green Section meeting and have written him today that it is a good thought but it seems to me a little dangerous in view of the present failings of Charlie. In a certain condition, he might come and just be a nuisance. In another condition, he might try to crab the meeting, which would be very embarrassing; and then he might not come at all. I am inclined to think it would be dangerous and even if he came, presided and was pleasant, I doubt it would do much good in the way Piper thinks, because I am afraid he would crab it all later on. My mind is entirely open on it, however, and I would be glad to know how it strikes you.

                                                                                                      Sincerely,

                                                                                                                            Alan Wilson

TEPaul,

This letter is strictly about the USGA Green Section and Politics, and nothing more.
Everyone understood that CBM was an irrascible fellow, who didn't get better with age.

Why do you keep inserting this letter, dated in late 1924, which deals strictly with the Chairmanship of the committee, as evidence that CBM wasn't involved in golf course architecture.

When was Mid-Ocean designed and built ?
Was it AFTER this letter ?
If so, good olde CBM musts have been active and known what he was doing

When did he write his book, a landmark publication ?
Was it AFTER this letter ?
IF so, good olde CBM must have remained active in GOLF

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
This letter is strictly about the USGA Green Section and Politics, and nothing more.
Everyone understood that CBM was an irrascible fellow, who didn't get better with age."


Pat:

That's true, but the relevent thing to me is what they say about CBM himself and his problems, including the clutches of his malady and the problems he'd had with what they called the old guard. How far back did that go I wonder and what was that all about?

Don't forget, we are talking about the people who were in power in the administration of American golf at the time. That is definitely not an insubstantial thing and certainly not for someone who did what Charlie did in golf and including the world he hung out with who were basically many of the self-same people who ran national administrative golf back then.

Don't worry, the USGA and the politics were pretty simple to solve for those guys at that Green Section creation meeting in NYC.. I believe they just decided to get Findlay Douglas to chair that meeting.

And then there is more, like his problems with The Creek Club at the end of 1926, but I doubt I'll mention any of that in detail. If someone wants to research that they can just take their chances establishing a research relationship with that club like a couple of guys on here should have done years ago with Merion, but didn't.

And how about you, Patrick?  Are you ever going to do any actual research yourself or are you going to just continue to ask me hundreds of questions and get me to do it all for you?  

[George_Bahto]

In my opinion Macdonald, obviously, did not want to be dictated to - no question.

As far as him “turning his back on golf” - I don’t think that is the case.

He built his National golf Links as a prototype as a sample for others to emulate in one form or another

His thought of a golf course was a LINKS (style) course and none were coming up - until the Lido project came forth.

THEN he got very interested (at least for the earlier years of the 4-year project).

His interests (say after about 1919 or so)  were two fold, as far as I’m concerned:
a. He wanted to continue tweaking National as players began to threaten his architecture and when he wanted to modify its architecture
b. Playing National and other famous courses with his famous cohorts; Henry Whigham, Judge Morgan O’Brien and Findlay Douglas to name a few - this was ongoing for many years.

(Check the portraits in the NGLA Library where portraits of these men hang dominantly on the walls - - Whigham to his right and the Judge on his left)

He was not interested in inland courses and only helped on those projects at the behest of he VERY GOOD friends, like Willie Vanderbilt, Jr and some of his cohorts at Piping Rock and Creek - or influential moguls like T. Suffern Tailer on the Newport project.

Certainly as he got older he became less and less interested, serving on boards like at Creek and Yale.

I think he was very interested about the Mid Ocean project (one of his holes outside of Southampton) - he was 61 at the time.

Even though he rejected the invitation of Perry Maxwell’s to visit a prospective site for a course, this does not mean he “turned his” back.

Tired of all the club BS? Sure we all get that way

(I’ll question him on this subject in detail the next time “we” talk)

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think I put forth a reasonable explanation of the March 1911 meeting at NGLA and its influence on the design of Merion.

I also think I put forth a reasonable outline of his activities up to 1928.

CBM was a difficult character to take at the height of his influence, I'm sure, as time went by, that he wore thin on many peers, who were also men of prominence.  The letter you produced seems to confirm that.

Hence, he became distanced, from clubs and organizations that he previously was involved with and held sway with.

In March of 1911, he was a giant in American golf and golf course archictecture.

He had studied overseas for an extensive period of time, was a great player and had designed two exceptionally prominent clubs/courses.

Why wouldn't the men of Merion seek his advice and counsel on architectural matters and the new Merion.

To not do so would be foolish.

[TEPaul]

George:

Looking at your post I would have to add that by Macdonald's own admission what happened with Lido and very early on was obviously very upsetting to him. That is certainly what he wrote and it doesn't need much of any interpretation as to what it meant to him.

When one actually reads and appreciates how he himself said they got him to agree to do it says a whole lot.

Even one of the real ironies on here was a good many years ago David Moriarty started a thread on here entitled something like "Jumping the Shark?" It was about Lido and the fact it just may've been the largest and most expensive blank pallet for an architect to actually just make everything to his particular and quantitative whims, and that is the way CBM described it and why he agreed to do it.

We need to seriously ask ourselves how other architects and particularly American architects felt about that kind of thing back then and the prevalent use of models or copy architecture.

It seems to me some and some significant ones resisted or criticized that philosophy, perhaps not all that vocally at first, but they did nevertheless or just started turning away from it perhaps even including Wilson and Flynn of Merion and CBM knew that. Did it mean to him that they were not willing to follow his revolutionary/traditionally or classically based GB architectural lead as he had hoped they would and it pissed him off or even depressed him?

I'm talking as early as the mid teens here.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I think I put forth a reasonable explanation of the March 1911 meeting at NGLA and its influence on the design of Merion."


I realize you think that Pat, but I think even you would admit that you just don't know the real details of the MCC records back then anywhere near as well as I do or Wayne does. I'm of course talking about all those records that were found at MCC after Moriarty's essay came out that he was never even aware existed.

I mean, really, if someone was really serious in getting an essay reviewed about a subject like Merion why in the world would they only let you and Ran and Nacarrato and MacWood review it? None of them had anywhere near the kind of knowledge and access to information a few of us here did at that time or later.

[George_Bahto]

Tom Paul - if I remember correctly Charlie was not upset with the Lido early on by upset about the final results (details) of the Lido project when he did visit it near the end, stated he was disappointed at the results of the contractors - (well they may have spent the pot dry also)

I think he was upset that the varied undulations (different on each of the fairways) did not get done as he envisioned them.

The undulations were there, clear as day, on the Plasticene model

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,
I think I put forth a reasonable explanation of the March 1911 meeting at NGLA and its influence on the design of Merion."

I realize you think that Pat, but I think even you would admit that you just don't know the real details of the MCC records back then anywhere near as well as I do or Wayne does. I'm of course talking about all those records that were found at MCC after Moriarty's essay came out that he was never even aware existed.

The MCC records that don't refer to the March 1911 meeting at NGLA are irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion

I mean, really, if someone was really serious in getting an essay reviewed about a subject like Merion why in the world would they only let you and Ran and Nacarrato and MacWood review it? None of them had anywhere near the kind of knowledge and access to information a few of us here did at that time or later.

That question isn't germane to this issue, which deals with the Committee meeting with CBM at NGLA in March of 1911.

[Adam Clayman]

What if we changed the criteria from "active in golf" to active in American golf?

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul, you accuse me of being impatient, but you've been spouting off about how CBM turned his back on the game and renounced golf architecture for about a decade now.   How many decades do you need before you come forward with facts to substantiate your gossip.
_____________________________________________

Adam,

Here again is the timeline of CBM's architectural projects in the 1920's.   Most were in America.

1920-1921. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Ocean Links.
1921-1922. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Gibson Island Club.
1922-1923. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Creek Club.
1922  Macdonald and Raynor designed and built a practice course for Eddie Moore.
1922 Macdonald and Raynor designed and built 9 hole course for H.P. Witney.
1922-1923. Macdonald and Raynor helped plan Women's National Golf & Tennis Club.
1922-1924. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Mid Ocean.
1924-1925. Macdonald, Raynor, and Banks designed and built Deepdale.
1923-1926. Macdonald, Raynor, and Banks designed and built Yale University Golf Club.
1928.  Macdonald published Scotland's Gift.
1930.  Macdonald turned 75 years old.

And he was involved in other aspects of golf in America, including with tournaments and with rules issues. 

[Mike Sweeney]

1923-1926. Macdonald, Raynor, and Banks designed and built Yale University Golf Club.

David

Have you ever seen anything about the amount of time Macdonald spent at Yale? "Golf at Yale" by Godley and Kelly take the position of Macdonald as consultant and Raynor as architect, but Raynor died and it is not clear how much CB Mac helped Banks at the end. Same with other courses too in terms of Banks working alone or with CB Macs support after Raynor's death? It was listed as thirty courses unfinished at Raynor's death in "Golf at Yale."

[TEPaul]

MikeS:

Of course you do have a very good point there----eg with those courses that Moriarty listed---what exactly did CBM do on all or any of them and how much time did he actually spend doing it? Is trying to know and understand that important and relevent? Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be just as important as trying to understand what Hugh Wilson and his committee did with Merion East?

With Macdonald do you know? Do I know? I doubt it. Does David Moriarty know? I seriously doubt that too and I would bet he will heretofore just attempt to avoid the subject altogether simply because he does not know but has a hard time admitting even that to anyone. Does even George Bahto know some or a good deal more than some of the rest of us? I tend to doubt that too. I doubt anyone really knows at this point and therefore probably the very best source of information today would be what CBM said about any of them himself. If he said nothing or very little it would probably be most appropriate not to just assume and speculate either!!

[Adam Clayman]

David,
 I understand he was involved with a few projects. I call them few, because, compared to Donald Ross's 42 courses in one of those early 1920 years, it seems a pittance.

My posit, and it isn't fact, is that he was not happy with the way things worked out with American golf. After learning the finer points directly from Old Tom, and seeing a disregard for what he may have felt as core, and becoming frustrated and ultimately depressed, he might have only been persuaded to do a few projects by a few passionate individuals, who saw eye to eye on these finer points.

I admit it's a lot of assumptions on my part, but seems like a natural reaction to being ignored. Also, I'm not just referring to his architectural involvement, but also in the organization he started.

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul
Actually the word 'malady' has numerous synonyms and was used in olden days to describe many forms of disease, unknown or known. I don't presume to know what Wilson meant when he used the word, and neither do you. Conjecture about the fatherhood of ideas is one thing, conjecture about a person's foibles is another.  If you have 'proof' post it, otherwise you're no better than the town gossip.

As for removing himself from golf, he did remove himself from competitive play when he felt he wasn't a viable competitor. He did remain an active player, and a 'player' in other parts of golf. He was a member of the R&A Rules Committee until he was 70 years old.  

The level of input he had on various courses in the '20s is probably best known by George, not you, as you have been tied up for the past 10 years researching a book on William Flynn. I hope you finish soon, I'm getting older and blinder and I don't want to have to ask my 20 year old grandson to read it to me (he's 7mos old now)  

[Patrick_Mucci]

MikeS:

Of course you do have a very good point there----eg with those courses that Moriarty listed---what exactly did CBM do on all or any of them and how much time did he actually spend doing it?

TEPaul,

Please, stop the nonsense.  It's bordering on absurd.
You're trying to divert the focus of the discussion by grasping at straws and raising irrelevant issues as they relate to this particular topic.

The PROOF is in the final product, CBM's COURSES and his derivative courses.  (SR & CB).
Look at their quality, NGLA, LIDO, YALE,

Next you'll tell us that he wasn't involved at any of the courses attributed to him.

If you were listening when Brad Klein made his presentation, he addressed Ross's time on site and it's relative unimportance due to Hatch, McGovern and Johnson.
Bill Coore is a wonderful individual and a great architect, but his methodology isn't a mandate for every architect.

Crump's similar methodology didn't have such great results personally, did it ?.

What appears fairly clear is that Macdonald designed those courses and Raynor built them and later may have assisted in designing them

Time spent on site is VASTLY overrated or an indication that you don't have talented people working for you.
Macdonald had talented people.
Pages 202-206 in "Scotland's Gift provides some insight.
As does Chapter XII, LIDO, YALE BERMUDA
Macdonald

Is trying to know and understand that important and relevent? Of course it is.

NO, it's not.
Creativity and Authorship are what's important, not the inability to delegate

Why wouldn't it be just as important as trying to understand what Hugh Wilson and his committee did with Merion East?

Because Those are two seperate issues.  Two distinct sets of circumstances
CBM was a  single architect, educated in architecture, having spent decades in pursuit of knowledge.
CBM designed several courses BEFORE the March 1911 meeting.

As an aside, name a good to great golf course designed by a committee where you know who did what.
Ask Tom Doak what he thinks of collaborative efforts, compromise and the final product.

The committee was composed of novices, uneducated in architecture, or its history, and none of them had ever designed or built anything of note.

So, on a committee, who did what has more signifiance since the entire committee generally gets the credit.
Anyone who has worked on a committee knows that some people do NOTHING, yet are swept along with the tide or wave of the overall committee's efforts and product

With Macdonald do you know?
Do I know? I doubt it.
Does David Moriarty know?
I seriously doubt that too and I would bet he will heretofore just attempt to avoid the subject altogether simply because he does not know but has a hard time admitting even that to anyone.


TEPaul, we do know, CBM designed these courses.

How much time he spent on site is IRRELEVANT

You're just trying to divert the focus of the discussion by getting into minutia that's irrelevant.

Does even George Bahto know some or a good deal more than some of the rest of us? I tend to doubt that too. I doubt anyone really knows at this point and therefore probably the very best source of information today would be what CBM said about any of them himself. If he said nothing or very little it would probably be most appropriate not to just assume and speculate either!!

You've spiraled so far down a foolish glide path that I doubt recovery is possible without my personal assistance.

You're looking for a subset of issues to divert and/or impede an effort to learn more about the degree of influence on the committee  

[DMoriarty]

Mike Sweeney,

People seem to forget that CBM was never an professional architect.  He was an amateur who gave what he gave out of his love of the game and never accepted any renumeration in return.  So to expect him to behave as would some person who designed and built courses for a living is an unreasonable expectation.  

From fairly early on in their relationship, Raynor was CBM's man in the field, and after the initial decisions CBM would correct and direct Raynor's work off of the plans that Raynor would draw up.   So it would surprise me greatly if CBM spent a substantial amount of time on site at any of these later projects (or some of the earlier ones) with the possible exception of Mid Ocean.  (In fact I wouldn't be surprised if his two pre-construction site visits to Merion were about standard.)

But does his working relationship with Raynor mean that he turned his back of golf architecture or that he renounced golf and architecture?    Of course not.   And that is what is at issue here -- TEPaul's (and Wayne's) endless gossip about how CBM had abandoned golf and renounced golf course design.    Whether CBM was working from plans only or was out there shovel in hand, he obviously hadn't renounced golf architecture during the 1920's.  Raynor was out there building his courses with his guidance well into the decade.

[TEPaul]

Jim Kennedy:

Of course there are many synonyms for the word malady and the word may've been used to describe many forms of disease. It would be hard to say at this point what they may've been with C.B. Macdonald but one of them, a symptom of another malady or the malady itself was a pretty severe problem controlling alcohol, often referred to as alcoholism. It was definitely not uncommon back then and certainly in the world he was part of, a world I know something about and from the very places Macdonald lived and played and worked. Frankly, it was pretty common and even more common was the uses of some pretty interesting euphemisms for it such as malady or "he is not well" or "not feeling well" or "he is taking a cure." Actually pretty much anything other than to actually describe and confront the actual problem itself.

Believe me, I heard it a lot around there and in those clubs that he was part of. Amazingly, there are still some around today, some very substantial people actually who remember Macdonald well, a few who were even in their twenties when he died. Obviously today they are in their nineties but one of them is still sharp as a tack with a remarkable mind still and an even more remarkable memory.

What Alan Wilson and Piper and Vanderpool were referring to with Macdonald was not some form of insanity, it was unpredictable alcoholism-----eg they felt it was too dangerous to risk having him show up to chair that meeting drunk or to get drunk or even not be able to show up because of it.

This was not just some party, these people were trying to set up and promote something at a USGA annual meeting they felt was extremely important to golf and architecture and its future. They had been working towards that goal for some years and this was to be the presentation of it to be decided upon.

George knows this about Macdonald but for his own reasons would prefer not to mention it and I certainly believe I can understand his reasons. I have no such encumbrances though as I never promised anyone anything in this vein.

Again, this kind of thing and particularly back then in that world was not uncommon, and they dealt with it in various ways that really don't much apply in our modern world. Macdonald was definitely not the only one in golf and architecture that way. Again, it was not uncommon. I distinctly remember another with that affliction; an excellent architect who was a close friend of my father's, Dick Wilson. I saw a lot of that kind of thing back then but he was one of the worst---really bad and at some amazing times too. Frankly it killed him.

Sure it's sad, it could be tragic but it was not uncommon back then it was not conjecture then and it's not conjecture now; it was real and it's the truth. But if you can't handle that kind of truth, I suppose I undertand that too----truly.   

[Mac Plumart]

You know guys...I appreciate the passion on the subject...more than you all probably realize.  Many times I think you are arguing right past each other and, perhaps, if you all were face-to-face these arguments would be squared away in no time flat (if you actually wanted the arguments to go away).  

Does Tom Paul mean that CBM retreated from USGA and R&A type of stuff when he says CBM stepped away from golf?  Does he mean that he quit helping other people with their architectural questions and course building?  Who knows...really only Tom does...but perhaps there is a tinge of what Tom is getting at in my previous few sentences.

Regardless, all of your arguing has led me to ONCE AGAIN re-read Scotland's Gift.  What a great treat that is.  How wonderful to have a reason to read the autobiography of one of the greatest figures in the history of golf.  Every single time I read it, I walk away with another nuggest of amazing insight and knowledge and many times mind blowingly inspirational words.

If y'all care to re-read the last sentence of the book (not the appendix but the book).  This guy LOVED golf.  True golf.  Charles Blair MacDonald should be a hero to all of us and we all owe him a HUGE debt of gratitude.

I am sorry for the interuption...please continue with the debate.  

[TEPaul]

"Charles Blair McDonald should be a hero to all of us and we all owe him a HUGE debt of gratitude."

Mac:

I feel you are very right about that. It seems he did have a unique and perhaps seminal idea about architecture----purposefully emulating time-tested holes and their important architectural prinicples---and the model of 18 quality holes, and the way he went about promoting and publicizing it on a grand scale with the idea of improving the quality of architecture in America generally was definitely an example of large scale thinking. For that we certainly do owe him a large debt of gratitude.

I don't know that he was any better than some of the best of his contemporaries but some of them, and certainly those of the "amateur/sportsmen" ilk like him who produced some important and significant American courses and architecture with their usually single projects, really only did those special projects for themselves and their clubs and not necessarily for the primary purpose of promoting the improvement of golf architecture in America, as Macdonald's purpose and vision of and for NGLA seemed to be.

We should not forget the significance in the name and in the words in the name because we become so familiar with it and its acronym. After-all, he could have called it something else such as Southampton GC or Peconic or Sebonac perhaps, but instead he did call it The National Golf Links of America and we should appreciate what he must have intended as well with the words NATIONAL and AMERICA!

[George_Bahto]

Tom - I don't understand why you want me to chime in on the drinking side of Macdonald's life? Certainly he drank and was often did lots of other things much worse - was tillie even worse as well as others

If you like to hang out his dirty laundry, fine with me - I'm not into it beyond occasionally referring to it.

His "story" is about his contribution to the game - and they were huge - his drinking etc (and there was a lot of etc that I know about and will not talk about) is a sidebar to his life.

About Raynor after he went on his own:

page 206 - Scotland's Gift - Golf:

Macdonalds (first about Sleepy Hollow, obviously one of my favorite subject these days - sorry, I can't resist this one:    "..... James A Stillman's friends lassoed me to lay out a golf course in Sleepy Hollow. It seemed an almost impossible task to carry through; because we were told that William Rockefeller would not consent to any trees being removed. I was almost inclined to throw up the task. However, at a meeting which Cooper Hewitt, Jim Whigham (oh no, him again), and I had with William Rockefeller and Frank Vanderlip, I was given a free hand. This was a hard task for Raynor in appalling summer heat (I guess he was having cool drinks while good old Seth was out there working around all the stone outcroppings)."

... but to my main point about Macdonald's influence on Raynor's work - this spoken by the "man" himself:

 "Next came St. Louis Country Club, then the White Sulphur Springs layout, and then finally came the colossal task of the Lido at Long Beach. By this time Raynor had become had become  postgraduate in golfing architecture, and since 1917 (until this book was written in 1927) built or reconstructed some 100 to 150 courses, which I have never seen. The Mid-Ocean Club, the Yale Golf Club, the Links Golf Course, the Gibson Island Golf Course, the Deepdale, and the Crook Club were the only ones I gave any personal attention to after 1917.

Raynor built courses in every climate, in Puerto Rico (gb: Berwind), the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii), three or four in Florida (gb: I know those), two in California (gb: well I know of one for sure?), and numberless elsewhere (gb: don't you love the word numberless?). he was a world builder. I had given him all my plans and ONLY OCCASIONALLY WAS I ASKED FOR ADVICE.

Sad to relate he died ere his prime at Palm Beach in 1925 (gb: Jan. 1926) while building a course there for Paris Singer (gb: no, not Everglades Club but the Winter Club). Raynor was a great loss to th community, but a still greater loss to me. I admired him from every point of view."




 

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

What were the years that the courses Macdonald references were completed subsequent to 1917  ?

The Mid-Ocean Club, the Yale Golf Club, the Links Golf Course, the Gibson Island Golf Course, the Deepdale, and the Creek Club were the only ones I gave any personal attention to after 1917

[George_Bahto]

1921-1924 - The Mid-Ocean Club
1924-1926 - Yale Golf Club
1918-1919 - Links Golf Course
1921-1922 - Gibson Island
1925 - playable 1926 - completed by Banks 1927 - Deepdale
1922-1923 - Creek Club - (original contact, 1921 or perhaps a little earlier)

[TEPaul]

"Tom - I don't understand why you want me to chime in on the drinking side of Macdonald's life? Certainly he drank and was often did lots of other things much worse - was tillie even worse as well as others

If you like to hang out his dirty laundry, fine with me - I'm not into it beyond occasionally referring to it.

His "story" is about his contribution to the game - and they were huge - his drinking etc (and there was a lot of etc that I know about and will not talk about) is a sidebar to his life."



Georgie Boy:

Don't you really?

If not, then I suppose all I can tell you is you and I have a quite different way of looking at history. I most certainly think part of Macdonald's "story," and a very important part, was about his contribution to the game, and yes it was huge, but I also think one of the true fascinations with golf and golf architecture is the complete lives and times of the people who significantly populated and directed that history.

To me the real fascination with a man of that stature (Macdonald) in the history of the American game and American architecture is all of his life and times and relationships, good, bad or ugly.

When I research and study history I like to feel I am getting to know and understand the people in it as well as I possibly can and that includes everything about them, warts and all, because the fact is THAT is REAL life, that is THEIR REAL LIVES, and not just some sort of sanitized hagiographical presentation of them or part of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Do we know if the Merion committee took Macdonald's sketches back to Merion with them ?