C.B. MacDonald was not that great...

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

CBM didn't need to rise from the ashes because he never suffered the fall you attribute to him.  To paraphrase Twain, the gossip about his untimely demise has been greatly exaggerated.    By you mostly.  And Wayne.  And a few others still gullible enough to believe that what you guys say has any connection to the truth.

You promised us you would back up your years of petty gossip and character assassination, and I guess this thread was your attempt.  Where is the evidence that CBM renounced golf and golf course architecture?  Where is the evidence that he turned his back on the game for the entirety of the 1920's?    Where is the evidence he dropped out?   Because I don't see it.

-- Is it the bit about the Argonomy committee?  Interesting stuff, but even you must know that it falls well short of establishing anything but 1) CBM wasn't interested in heading up this committee; and 2) Alan Wilson was intimidated by the guy and afraid that he wouldn't go along with the others on the committee.    Great men rarely go along with the pack and oftentimes are willing to "crab" when crabbing was called for, and it doesn't surprise me that some would be weary of working with him.  Perhaps CBM would have had the sense to "crab" Alan Wilson's odd notion of how to measure a golf hole.

-- If not the few bits about the agronomy committee, then perhaps it is something that you were told by those who witnessed CBM's supposed demise first hand, and are still around to tell about it?   Let's see, you claim that he renounced the game and golf course architecture around 1920?  Ninety (90) years ago! If these first hand witnesses were adults, then they must be fast approaching 110 years old. Who are these miracles of science approaching their 12th decade on earth, and able to recall accurately events witnesses almost a century ago?

-- Or is it a matter of some sort of miraculous reincarnation, where knowing this "Knott" could substitute for CBM himself?   Amazing if true!

-- Or is it again your special Blue Blood radar which provides you special insight into the lives of people who lived a century before?   You've often claimed that ability, I understand how you might consider yourself a foremost expert on the nasty behavior of drunken bluebloods, but somehow I doubt that you are CBM's time traveling doppleganger.

Something tells me though that all these 'proofs' fall well short of your promise, and all you have is some sleazy gossip, much of it your own creation.    CBM didn't abandon the game in the 1920's and he certainly didn't abandon golf course design for the entirety of that decade.   As Mac points out, he loved golf from his time in Saint Andrews in the 1870's at least until he penned Scottland's gift.  And he was quite satisfied with the results of his efforts at NGLA.  As he noted, he it had accomplished what he had hoped it would accomplish.

Here again are some of the more obvious items from the 1920's . . .

1920-1921. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Ocean Links.
1921-1922. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Gibson Island Club.
1922.   Macdonald's NGLA hosts the first Walker Cup.  St. Andrews would host the next.
1922-1923. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Creek Club.
1922  Macdonald and Raynor designed and built a practice course for Eddie Moore.
1922 Macdonald and Raynor designed and built 9 hole course for H.P. Witney.
1922-1923. Macdonald and Raynor helped plan Women's National Golf & Tennis Club.
1922-1924. Macdonald and Raynor designed and built Mid Ocean.
1924-1925. Macdonald, Raynor, and Banks designed and built Deepdale.
1923-1926. Macdonald, Raynor, and Banks designed and built Yale University Golf Club.
1926.  After 18 years of service, Macdonald stepped down from the Rules Committee of the Royal & Ancient, St. Andrews.
1927-1928.  While no longer on the Rules Committee at St. Andrews, CBM nonetheless was still actively corresponding with Low, Darwin, Fownes, and others about various rules issues.
1928.  Macdonald published Scotland's Gift.
1930.  Macdonald turned 75 years old.

Imagine what he might have done had been involved in golf during the 1920s.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

CBM didn't need to rise from the ashes because he never suffered the fall you attribute to him.  To paraphrase Twain, the gossip about his untimely demise has been greatly exaggerated.    By you mostly.  And Wayne.  And a few others still gullible enough to believe that what you guys say has any connection to the truth.

You promised us you would back up your years of petty gossip and character assassination, and I guess this thread was your attempt.  Where is the evidence that CBM renounced golf and golf course architecture?  Where is the evidence that he turned his back on the game for the entirety of the 1920's?    Where is the evidence he dropped out?   Because I don't see it."


David Moriarty:

Character assasination??

I'm not sure why you'd label the fact that C.B. Macdonald had largely dropped out of golf by the 1920s as character assasination other than you certainly do have an odd way of interpreting things.

Where is the evidence of that? Try reading the letter from Wynant Vanderpool to Hugh Wilson contained in Post #31. Apparently Macdonald offered that reason himself to Vanderpool.

And as far as petty gossip is concerned I doubt the likes of Piper and Alan Wilson and Vanderpool were engaging in gossip when they discussed and decided that it was too dangerous to ask Macdonald to chair the important meeting in NYC to launch the USGA Green Section because he was 'in the clutches of his malady' and that his behavior might proof to be too unpredictable and dangerous to the success of that important meeting.

Furthemore, what did Macdonald really contribute to those projects you listed in the 1920s? Do you have any idea? If so let's see the details of what he actually did do.

And lastly regarding the rest of your post, you can continue to criticize and to try to mininmize the likes of Alan Wilson, and you can criticize and insult me and what you call my blueblood world and heritage all you want to; you've become very good at doing all that and very constant at it, but the fact is that heritage, that world, that specific area and the clubs in it are the ones I came from and grew up in and they are the same ones Macdonald had to do with and belonged to, and I know that world, that area, that heritage and the people in it and everything about it arguably ten times better than some argumentative, interloping, two-bit observer of it like you ever could or ever will.

What do you know of it Moriarty? You've been to NGLA once in your life, to Merion once in your life, you'e read a few books by and about these people and you've done some limited research on them and their clubs---again never having even bothered to actually go to these places themselves to research them and to get to know them and their members and their ethos. And yet you are trying to tell us; you are tring to tell me you have some special or exclusive knowledge and understanding of them? That is ridiculous, it's madness, it's arrogant and ultimately ludicrous!

I believe Macdonald was a giant in the American game and in architecture; so were some others whose lifes ended up sadly or tragically for various reasons. He was not unique that way, as in some ways that fate seemed to be a consequence of that time and that world. Towards the end he'd even been banned from his own hugely significant creation---NGLA. Of course some uninformed observers such as yourself who may try to raise the level of the lifes of men like that to hagiography will deny it or call it petty gossip or one disparaging thing or another but that will never change the reality of it and the factual history of it, as much as people like you may think it will or may think it can.

[DMoriarty]

I've read your letters Tom.  Not even you could seriously think that they even begin to make the case that CBM renounced the game and golf course architecture for the whole of the 1920's.  He was not "overly enthusiastic" about the Green Section and didn't want to serve on the committee. So what?   

In your usual zeal to portray CBM in a negative light, you've gotten a few things wrong and drawing from unsupportable conclusions.   

For example, you claimed that they felt it was too dangerous to ask CBM to "chair the important meeting in NYC to launch the USGA Green Section.  This was 1924, and the Green Section had been created in 1920.    CBM wasn't interested in serving then, either.
Also, the only apparent danger was that CBM would not "play ball."  Obviously they had an agenda -- apparently to create and fund an endowment for the Section -- and Wilson was clearly worried that CBM wouldn't "play ball" and would instead "crab" their agenda.

Again, so what?   How you can twist this into some sort of personal failing or rejection of golf on the part of CBM is beyond me.

Maybe you consider an unwillingness to "play ball" to help an organization you don't really support as some sort of character flaw, but I don't.   

As for the rest of your post, it is just your same old garbage. 

Spending time at NGLA or Merion wouldn't transport me back 100 years ago.  Only you are foolish to believe that.

[TEPaul]

"This was 1924, and the Green Section had been created in 1920."


This is a perfect example of a statment of a light-weight, research limited and frankly "research challenged" contributor!!

The USGA Green Section was not created until 1926 and under the administration of USGA president W.C. Fownes!

The USGA GREEN COMMITTEE was set up around 1920 and it was chaired by Alan Wilson for much of that time (he resigned when his brother Hugh died in Feb 1925). It's mission and directive was to set up an agronomic research entity between the USGA and the US Dept of Agriculture-----the USGA Green Section------for golf agronomy's betterment and the betterment of American golf to monitor and challenge the commercial elements in that industry that were perceived to be unscrupulous and unnecessarily detriment and costly to the efficient economic development of American golf and its future.

DO THE RESEARCH THIS TIME MORIARTY, because you are wrong!

[Tom MacWood]

TEP has a vivid imagination.

[TEPaul]

The long and short of your recent posts, Moriarty, is you are at the end of your credibility if you ever had any! Will I take every opportunity to convince others of that fact? Damn right I will. Eventually someone will win this contest on here about these clubs and their historically accurate histories and it ain't gonna be you----and that's for damn sure. How will it all play out in the real world? Well, that is what you're going to see Moriarty. Stick around and watch and one day you might learn something about the real world of golf and even its golf architecture!

Or you can consider waking up and trying to collaborate. It's been offered before but you've refused due to your apparent pettiness and adversialness.

Hope you change your mind and attitude. If so, get in touch and off this DG. Here's how:

Barn/Office-610-353-0568
email=tpaul25737@aol.com

[TEPaul]

"TEP has a vivid imagination."

I sure do and I think Tom MacWood is unfortunately saddle with Asburger's Syndrome or something quite similar to it.  His posts and his years long MO on here are remarkably symptomatic of it.

Have any of you ever spoken to this man on the telephone? I have, and a number of times. It's like speaking to someone who speaks in quarter-time-----definitely NOT NORMAL!!!

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Both you and David are incorrect. The GREEN SECTION of the USGA began in 1921. The proof can be found in the March 1922 issue of the American Golfer where it mentions that it was but ten months old at that time meaning that it was formed in April/May of 1921. See below excerpt:

[DMoriarty]

"This was 1924, and the Green Section had been created in 1920."


This is a perfect example of a statment of a light-weight, research limited and frankly "research challenged" contributor!!

The USGA Green Section was not created until 1926 and under the administration of USGA president W.C. Fownes!

The USGA GREEN COMMITTEE was set up around 1920 and it was chaired by Alan Wilson for much of that time (he resigned when his brother Hugh died in Feb 1925). It's mission and directive was to set up an agronomic research entity between the USGA and the US Dept of Agriculture-----the USGA Green Section------for golf agronomy's betterment and the betterment of American golf to monitor and challenge the commercial elements in that industry that were perceived to be unscrupulous and unnecessarily detriment and costly to the efficient economic development of American golf and its future.

DO THE RESEARCH THIS TIME MORIARTY, because you are wrong!

From the February, 1921 Bulletin of the Green Section of the U. S. Golf Association:

Resolution Adopted by the United States Golf Association,
November 30, 1920

   Resolved, That a Green Section of the United States Golf Association be and is hereby created for the purpose of collecting and distributing among members of the Section information of value respecting the proper maintenance and upkeep of golf courses.
   The Green Section shall be eomposed of delegates and permanent members, as herein provided. Delegates may be nominated by any golf club in the United States or Canada, whether affiliated with the United States Golf Association or not, and each such club may appoint one dele~ gate provided that no person having any direct or indirect financial in- terest in the sale of any article, material or service used in the maintenance and upkeep of golf courses shall be eligible to membership.
   The Green Section shall be conducted by a committee to be known as the "Green Committee of the United States Golf Association," which shall be eomposed of 25 members, one-half of whom shall be appointed by the President of the United States Golf Association and the other half shall be elected by the delegates and permanent members.
   The officers of the Green Committee shall be a chairman and two vice chairmen, who shall be appointed by the president of the United States Golf Association and shall be ex officio members of the Green Committee.
   The members of the Green Committee shall hold office for one year or until their successors are appointed, and any vacancies occuring in the Committee for any cause shall be filled by the remaining members of the Committee. The number of members of the Green Committee may be increased at any time by a vote of the Committee, and in such case the additional members shall be appointed for the remainder of the year by the Committee and thereafter shall be appointed or elected as herein provided.
  Persons who have contributed in a scientific or practical way to the betterment of American golf courses may be appointed permanent mem- bers by the Green Committee.
  The permanent members and the delegates to the Green Section shall meet at least once a year at the time of the annual meeting of the United States Golf Association or at the time and place of the amateur championship or at a time and place fixed by the Green Committee, and said meeting shall be for the discussion of subjects of interest and the election of members of the Green Committee.
  The expense of conducting the Green Section shall be borne by the clubs which appoint delegates to such section, and the dues of each club shall be fixed by the Green Committee.
. . .


___________________________

Phillip,

Their first meeting was in Washington D.C. in January 1921, but as you can see the USGA created the Section by resolution on Nov. 30, 1920.

Will you guys ever learn that I don't make this stuff up?

[DMoriarty]

The long and short of your recent posts, Moriarty, is you are at the end of your credibility if you ever had any! Will I take every opportunity to convince others of that fact? Damn right I will. Eventually someone will win this contest on here about these clubs and their historically accurate histories and it ain't gonna be you----and that's for damn sure. How will it all play out in the real world? Well, that is what you're going to see Moriarty. Stick around and watch and one day you might learn something about the real world of golf and even its golf architecture!

Or you can consider waking up and trying to collaborate. It's been offered before but you've refused due to your apparent pettiness and adversialness.

Hope you change your mind and attitude. If so, get in touch and off this DG. Here's how:

Barn/Office-610-353-0568
email=tpaul25737@aol.com

TEPaul,

You don't speak for Merion and have no authority to ask me to collaborate on anything to do with Merion or their records.    You need to quit pretending to be speaking for Merion here.     

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
You don't speak for Merion and have no authority to ask me to collaborate on anything to do with Merion or their records.    You need to quit pretending to be speaking for Merion here."





If you think that then just try me, Moriarty. But as Lanny said, "You just ain't got the guts."  

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

I NEVER said that you "made up" anything at all, so please don't respond to ME and state, "Will you guys ever learn that I don't make this stuff up?"

[TEPaul]

Philip and David:

Thank you for your #108 and#109. I will take it under advisement and research it further. Have either of you considered or researched the structure of it (corporate) and funding of it? 

[DMoriarty]

"TEPaul,
You don't speak for Merion and have no authority to ask me to collaborate on anything to do with Merion or their records.    You need to quit pretending to be speaking for Merion here."





If you think that then just try me, Moriarty. But as Lanny said, "You just ain't got the guts."  

The fact is a complete non-entity like you can say whatever they want to about a Merion or anyone else involved with it because both you and Merion and the rest of us knows you have nothing to lose. 

You are a lightweight non-entity Moriarty, and the stink of it is, at this point, there ain't nothing you can do about it. "Oh, poor me, everyone is out to get me and my reputation----BOO-HOO-HOO-OH-BOO-HOO! 

That's life and that's human nature, Moriarty, and you earned it in spades!    

Now Tom you are slurring your typing again.  Sleep it off before you embarass yourself further.



Phillip,  what you said was that I was wrong.  You were wrong about that, and the date.  Not nearly as wrong as the always arrogant TEPaul, but wrong nonetheless.

When I provide a date certain, it is because I have researched it, and not by treating some magazine as gospel.  You might consider doing the same before you go announcing that I am wrong.

[TEPaul]

Do it Moriarty! I challenge you on the creation of the USGA Green Section. This time you may need to actually do the research on what I call the "Agronomy Letters" and not always have to depend on me to provide the material evidence to you as I had to do with the creation of Merion East between 1910-11.

Do the research. Read the contemporaneous material THIS TIME!

[DMoriarty]

Huh?

From the February, 1921 Bulletin of the Green Section of the U. S. Golf Association:

Resolution Adopted by the United States Golf Association,
November 30, 1920

   Resolved, That a Green Section of the United States Golf Association be and is hereby created for the purpose of collecting and distributing among members of the Section information of value respecting the proper maintenance and upkeep of golf courses.
   The Green Section shall be composed of delegates and permanent members, as herein provided. Delegates may be nominated by any golf club in the United States or Canada, whether affiliated with the United States Golf Association or not, and each such club may appoint one dele~ gate provided that no person having any direct or indirect financial in- terest in the sale of any article, material or service used in the maintenance and upkeep of golf courses shall be eligible to membership.
   The Green Section shall be conducted by a committee to be known as the "Green Committee of the United States Golf Association," which shall be eomposed of 25 members, one-half of whom shall be appointed by the President of the United States Golf Association and the other half shall be elected by the delegates and permanent members.
   The officers of the Green Committee shall be a chairman and two vice chairmen, who shall be appointed by the president of the United States Golf Association and shall be ex officio members of the Green Committee.
   The members of the Green Committee shall hold office for one year or until their successors are appointed, and any vacancies occuring in the Committee for any cause shall be filled by the remaining members of the Committee. The number of members of the Green Committee may be increased at any time by a vote of the Committee, and in such case the additional members shall be appointed for the remainder of the year by the Committee and thereafter shall be appointed or elected as herein provided.
  Persons who have contributed in a scientific or practical way to the betterment of American golf courses may be appointed permanent mem- bers by the Green Committee.
  The permanent members and the delegates to the Green Section shall meet at least once a year at the time of the annual meeting of the United States Golf Association or at the time and place of the amateur championship or at a time and place fixed by the Green Committee, and said meeting shall be for the discussion of subjects of interest and the election of members of the Green Committee.
  The expense of conducting the Green Section shall be borne by the clubs which appoint delegates to such section, and the dues of each club shall be fixed by the Green Committee.
. . .

[Phil_the_Author]

David, I have no problem in admitting that I was wrong about the date and that you were correct, if that is actually the case.

You should try it yourself by admitting that YOU were wrong in stating that I claimed that you "made it up." I did not.

Still, gospel or not, the magazine did make the point that the Green Section began OPERATING in 1921 which is EXACTLY what you stated when you said "Their first meeting was in Washington D.C. in January 1921." In fact, the article you quoted from CLEARLY shows that as of November 30, 1920, there was no ACTUAL Green Section in reality as NO MEMBERS had yet been appointed. I think if YOU do a little more research you will learn that these appointments were APPROVED at the January 1921 meeting after the members had been officially proposed and then voted on. After all, THAT is what that document you quoted from states had to take place FIRST in order to form the committee. And so THAT is why the true date that the Green Section began OPERATING in reality is not in 1920 as you have MISTAKENLY interpreted that document to be stating.

Now, most likely their first meeting was a perfunctory one after the voting and approval process was finished. Most likely their first WORKING meeting would take place a few months later which, quite coincidentally would then make what was written in the American Golfer to be quite accurate, almost to the level of gospel truth one might say. But again, just as your interpretation of January 1921 as being their first meeting is just that, interpretation, so is mine with the April date I ascribe it. In any case, as you readily have already stated, the first meeting of the committee took place in 1921 as both myself and the American Golfer stated and not 1920 as you first claimed. So, I don't believe I am wrong and I think you are. Then again, we are both splitting hairs...

Believe it or not I was actually trying to make the point that Tom was way off on the date and that you were not and actually supporting you in that. You are so blinded by your arrogance that you can't see it for what it was and so accuse me of doing what I didn't...

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

Is that a "resolution" to create a USGA Green Section that you just quoted or is it a reflection of a vote to accept a resolution?  

If you think it's a vote to accept a resolution I can show you what the head of the USGA's supposed Green Section, Alan Wilson who thought he was the head of the USGA's Green Committee, had to say about it in 1921 when asked by the US Dept of Agriculture's C.V. Piper.

May I suggest a bit more "RESEARCH" for the man who thinks he knows everythng about Merion---belay that---who thinks he knows everything about CBM---belay that too---the man who thinks he knows everything about everythng?  

You might try doing a bit more research on the USGA Green Section too, Phil. The USGA Green Committee was not the same thing as the USGA Green Section which would eventually and officially emerge. You two can find all the back-ground material on its creation in the so-called "agronomy letters" which I believe are now digitized and on-line.

[DMoriarty]

From the same publication, with my emphasis added:

Announcement from the Secretary of the United States Golf Association

  Realizing the importance of aiding in every way the proper upkeep and maintenance of American golf courses, the United States Golf Association has created a Green Section, to be conducted by the Green Committee of the United States Golf Association, as more fully appears in tho resolution, a copy of which is appended.
  It is confidently believed that this section will by means of timely letters or a regularly published journal, provide information of great value regarding the supplies of seeds, the qualities and use of fertilizers, soil preparation, and scientific matters, besides providing the means by which the experience and practices of green committees and green-keepers through- out the United States will be made available to all; that the result will be a distinct improvement in the standard of maintenance and an avoid- ance of waste and useless expense.
  Through lack of knowledge, it is safe to say, much needless delay is occasioned and many thousands of dollars are wasted each year by golf clubs, especially new clubs, in their endeavors to establish good turf.   The utilization of existing knowledge and experience will, it is hoped, not only reduce this useless waste but insure turf of good quality.
  We have secured the assurance of full assistance from practically all the scientists of the country who are actively investigating the various factors that determine quality in turf. Among the men referred to are Messrs. Piper, Oakley, Hillman, Walton, and Carrier, all of whom have secured results of high value in connection with turf problems.
  We have been fortunate in securing Messrs. C. V. Piper and R. A. Oakley, of the United States Department of Agriculture, to accept, respectively, the chairmanship and vice chairmanship of the Green Committee of the United States Golf Association. This committee, which will conduct the Green Section until the first annual meeting, will be composed of the following: C. V. Piper, Chairman, Washington, D. C.; R. A. Oakley, Vice Chair- man, Washington,D. C.; E. J. Marshall, Vice Chairman, Inverness Club, Toleda, Ohio; George W. Adair, Druid Hill Golf Club, Atlanta, Ga.; W. A. Alexander, Old Elm Club, Fort Sheridan, Ill.; Sterling E. Edmunds, St. Louis Country Club, St. Louis, :Mo.;Wm. C. Fownes, Jr., Oakmont Country Club, Pittsburgh, Pa.; Dr. Walter S. Harban, Columbia Country Club, Washington, D. C.; Frederic C. Hood, The Country Club, Boston, Mass.; Norman Macbeth, Wilshire Country Club, Los Angeles, Cal.; W. P. Stewart, Audubon Golf Club, New Orleans, La.; James L. Taylor, Ekwanok Country Club, Manchester, Vt.; "\Vynant D. Vanderpool, Morris County Golf Club, Convent Station, N. J.; Alan D. Wilson, Merion Cricket Club, Haverford, Pa.; Frank L. "Woodward, Denver Country Club, Denver, Colo.
  Ultimately it is planned to enlarge the committee so that every section of the country will be represented and its local problems considered. It is hoped that future development of the Green Committee will include a system of sectional sub-committees which will hold frequent meetings attended by delegates of clubs in that section for interchange of information; to illustrate, a sub-committee might be formed in Chicago which would include the surrounding region and would consider local problems.
  One-half of the members of the Green Committee will be elected at the time of the annual meeting by the delegates and permanent members of the Section. The other half, and its officers (chairman and two vice-chairmen), who shall be members ex offi~io of the Committee, shall be appointed by the president of the United States Golf Association.
Every golf club in the United States and Canada which is a sub- scriber to the Green Section is invited to nominate a delegate to the Green Section, preferably a member of its green committee and one who is in- terested in the subject and can contribute something to the fund of infor- mation intended to be made available by the creation of this Section.
Each club nominating a delegate to this Green Section will be re- quired to pay annual dues to support the Section; the dues for the first year will be $15.00 for members of the United States Golf Association and $20.00 for other clubs, and the fund thus contributed will be used solely to pay expenses. There will be no salaried officers.
  There will also be a permanent membership (without dues) com- posed of individuals who are interested in this subject and who have done valuable work in a scientific or practical way. Such members shall be elected by the Green Committee.
  If consideration is given to the annual cost of maintaining golf courses, these dues will seem trivial, and the savings and benefits derived from membership in this Section should amply justify their payment.
The Green Committee has prepared an announcement of its aims and plans, which follows.

W. D. VANDERPOOL,
Secretary, United States Golf Association.


_________________________________________

Phil, for a researcher your ability to comprehend anything but the most explicit level of meaning or message is more than a bit suspect.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

Your ability to write consistently is a bit lacking as well. Notice what the PORTION of the article that you originally posted and to which I commented on stated and what it DIDN'T! Is the reson you then posted the rest because I pointed out what I did?

Based upon the NEW INFORMATION you posted, I withdraw what I said and recognize that the committee was at least partially formed and operating on November 30, 1920.

That being said, will you simply accept and admit that I DID NOT say that you MADE ANYTHING UP? Why is it so freaking hard for you to admit that you made a mistake with that? By simply not doing so it just becomes bigger...

[DMoriarty]

Phil,  the first posting was the USGA's resolution and the second was the USGA's announcement that the Section had been created.   Either ought to have sufficed, but I posted it in response to TEPaul's continued ridiculous assertions.  Imagine him imploring me to do the research. 

My only mistake is thinking you might be capable of understanding my message.  I should know better.

[Jim_Kennedy]

What more can be said?

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1921/2102TC.pdf

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

Your arrogance is pathetic. "My only mistake is thinking you might be capable of understanding my message.  I should know better."

No, once again, that was NOT your ONLY MISTAKE. Your FIRST ONE which you will not simply admit to, was in saying that I had claimed that you "MADE IT UP" which I most certainly did not do.

It is arrogance to keep evading that simple point which is CLEAR for all to look and see. You said it, you were wrong in doing so and for some reason you just can't bring yourself to say to me, "Phil, you are right, I was wrong in what I said..."

Go ahead David, you can do it... It might even be cathartic...

By the way, I DID understand your message which is why I posted the article in SUPPORT of what you had basically written... Of course, MY FIRST mistake was in believeing that you could see past your arrogance and recognize that someone just might do that...

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

There is a section to what you posted that mentions the "First Meeting of the Green Committee" on page 11. I am now curious about that and wonder if you could post that as well?

[TEPaul]

David, Phil and Jim:

Good work there but I suggest you continue to do the research. The USGA's Green Committee was not the same thing as the USGA's Green Section which would evolve later.

It basically boiled down to how the agronomic research was to be funded. The USGA set up the USGA Green Committee to look into it. Alan Wilson was the USGA Executive Committee's chairman of the USGA Green Committee. He would hold that positon until 1925 when he resigned due to the death of his brother. Piper and Oakley had been doing the research for the USGA for some years and they were all looking to set up a permanent USGA Green Section to fund the research. They tried to set up a corporation (maybe they did) that would become the USGA Green Section Corporation. It was to be a Pennsylvania registered corporation and they were hoping to get it endowed to the tune of $1,000,000. But the Fat Cats who Piper called the "Captains of Usery" apparently wouldn't go for that. Apparently they felt that was not the best use of their capital.

I believe the USGA Green Section as we know it today came into being under the presidency of W.C. Fownes. Piper was its first chairman and when he died Oakley took over and he died shortly thereafter.

Do the research. If you don't know where to find it I'll explain it to you next week when I get back from Boston. I'm always having to do Moriarty's research for him or explain to him where to find it. This has been going on for years on the subject of Merion and apparently he still hasn't figured out how to do it and either has MacWood. All they can do is demand that I give it all to them!

Actually the USGA Green Section itself needs to do some research into its own history and some rewriting because it is meaningfully inaccurate and incomplete on its website at present---ie it's history starts too late with Marshall in 1920. What they need to do is the same thing I did----read all those files that led up to it before 1920 that only came into the USGA from someone's attic within the last decade!!

As Tom MacWood says, we always need to do more research even if I have to do it for him!