ANGC and The New 13th

[Mike Bodo]

Now that The Master's is fast approaching there are articles, podcasts and Vlogs coming out featuring everyone's opinion and take on the redesigned 13th and how the changes will affect how the pros play the hole and if it's good or bad for tournament? Most agree there will be a lot more golfers laying up, with only the longest of the long going for it in two. A few contend there will be fewer roars from patrons as a result of more conservative decision making, taking much of the drama out of the hole for failed or successful second shots into the green.


My question to everyone in the discussion group; would have it been so bad to change the 13th to a long, difficult par 4 as opposed to maintaining its status as a par 5 by forever increasing its length? A 480 downhill par 4 (from the original championship tee), isn't crazy long by today's standards. It would create more aggressive play and have Rae's Creek become more of a factor on the approach - especially for those willing to take on front pin locations.


ANGC playing as a Par 71 for The Master's as opposed to a par 72 isn't the end of the world nor would it diminsh the tournament in any way, shape or form. In fact, I'd argue converting the 13th from a par 5 to par 4 would make Amen Corner that much more daunting of a challenge to get through unscathed given the increased difficulty the 13th would present.

[Tom_Doak]

The shorter hole has been not as appealing when it’s difficult to hit a hook around the corner, like players did back in the day.


They’ve often quoted Bobby Jones in recent years saying that going for that green in two was supposed to be a “momentous decision,” so the handwriting has been on the wall for some time.  My guess is that Fred Ridley was waiting to hear what the ball rollback was going to be before they decided just what length they should make it.

[Marty Bonnar]

No apostrophe.
No need to thank me.
Love,
F.
 

[Charlie Goerges]

No apostrophe.
No need to thank me.
Love,
F.
 

Hilarious!

[archie_struthers]

 


I just don't see the need to make it really difficult. One of the great things about the back nine at Augusta is that you can shoot 30 or 40 depending on who you navigate the ship.  10,11, and most notably 12 are fraught with danger as we know from all the train wrecks over the years.


However, if you get to the green in two on thirteen unscathed on the back nine a world of possibility exists. I'm more about par as what everyone else is shooting , not what the scorecard says. When you play for money or in competition that's all that matters. So in many ways Augusta might be overreacting on this one!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I just don't see the need to make it really difficult. One of the great things about the back nine at Augusta is that you can shoot 30 or 40 depending on who you navigate the ship.  10,11, and most notably 12 are fraught with danger as we know from all the train wrecks over the years.

However, if you get to the green in two on thirteen unscathed on the back nine a world of possibility exists. I'm more about par as what everyone else is shooting , not what the scorecard says. When you play for money or in competition that's all that matters. So in many ways Augusta might be overreacting on this one!

In addition to that, I don't think it's played closer to 4 than 5 in any year, obviously pre-additional-35-yards. Also, if it was "driver, short iron" I'm not sure how 35 yards (three clubs) changes it to a layup for SOOOO many more players. Is it because they'll also hit 3W more often? I guess we will see.

[Jeff Schley]

I just don't see the need to make it really difficult. One of the great things about the back nine at Augusta is that you can shoot 30 or 40 depending on who you navigate the ship.  10,11, and most notably 12 are fraught with danger as we know from all the train wrecks over the years.


However, if you get to the green in two on thirteen unscathed on the back nine a world of possibility exists. I'm more about par as what everyone else is shooting , not what the scorecard says. When you play for money or in competition that's all that matters. So in many ways Augusta might be overreacting on this one!

Archie you are correct in my way of thinking. You have a murder's row of holes ranking 1,2,4 over the years in difficulty. Shouldn't you give them a breather somewhere? I like that guys have to work it right to left or end up in the trees or the ball above their feet by the trees anyway. I don't like for them to be able to simply bomb it over the trees as I don't think that is what that hole should require. You have to hook tee shot, then try and play an approach to not be long or short. Both with danger. I love 13, I doubt I will love it less as it is lengthened so maybe a shoulder shrug, but I agree with Archie.

[Mike Bodo]

Here's what some of the pros had to say regarding the change per an article on Golf.com today.
[/size]
[/size]“It’s longer. (Laughing.) It’s a lot longer. Definitely harder. I think with modern technology and that tee shot — I used to hit 3-wood there because I can sling-hook a 3-wood. I can’t sling-hook a driver on purpose. That hole was one where I’d hit the same shot I hit on 10. The 3-wood, it has enough spin where the ball can actually stay in the air. With the driver, when I hook it, the ball doesn’t have enough spin to where it can stay in the air and hook that much. It kind of nosedives. But the 3-wood, I can sit up there and it will just be like a boomerang. But that’s really the biggest change for me. Now I’ll just hit driver kind of out towards the corner and try and use more of the contouring to get the ball that way versus before — I should say it this way: My driver is now going where my 3-wood kind of used to go. My 3-wood I could maybe get it a little bit further around the corner, but my driver is now going to where that 3-wood was before.” — Scottie Scheffler
[/size]“With the tee 35 yards back, shorter hitters won’t get it around the corner and longer hitters [might avoid] the trees. Put it in the pine straw on 13 and it wasn’t really a go-for-it situation. But with 3-wood, longer hitters probably won’t get it around the corner [either]. It’s one of those things, I guess—they’re gonna keep extending golf courses, and it’s gonna be more difficult.” — Brooks Koepka
[/size]“It will change the hole. It’s now driver [off the tee] and maybe a long iron into the green. Will they take out trees on the bend? That’ll determine how much harder it is when it comes to goin’ for it in two. There’s probably gonna be a lot more lay-ups, which, I mean—a few years ago, they wanted the roars back on Sunday. Now you’re takin’ away the roars? That’s kind of weird.” — Bubba Watson
[/size]“I think it’s now lengthened to the point where, if you hit driver, you’re going to have to snap-hook it—and hopefully not hit the trees. In the past, if you wanted to just hit a straight shot, you hit 3-wood. I always tried to hit driver because I didn’t want to hit a hybrid or a 4-iron off of that crazy hook slope. So I think the change will make the hole hard. I kind of wish they hadn’t lengthened 15 as much. That hole was very dramatic and very fair the way it was. It’s nice to have holes you can reach [in two] at Augusta.”[/size] [/size]— Xander Schauffele

[Kalen Braley]

It seems odd the players and others are complaining, "we don't like the change because we basically have to now play it like it was played for most of tournament history"

P.S.  On a side note, opened one of the more amusing click-bait articles I've seen in quite awhile.  The headline was "The Masters making a wildy unpopular call for 2023".  Turns out the Peach Ice-cream sandwich will not be available in 2023, just like it wasn't last year. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

P.S.  On a side note, opened one of the more amusing click-bait articles I've seen in quite awhile.  The headline was "The Masters making a wildy unpopular call for 2023".  Turns out the Peach Ice-cream sandwich will not be available in 2023, just like it wasn't last year. 

Berry, I hear.

[jeffwarne]

There WILL be decisions this year.
Some of those might involve set make up/driver choices and settings.
Golf is boring when a knuckle fade is always the shot of choice.


The previous 20 years was (more)about execution,not strategy, and choices were only made on 13 when weather or error intervened.

[cary lichtenstein]

Let's see how it plays and how it determines the winner on Sunday

[Ken Moum]

There WILL be decisions this year.
Some of those might involve set make up/driver choices and settings.
Golf is boring when a knuckle fade is always the shot of choice.


The previous 20 years was (more)about execution,not strategy, and choices were only made on 13 when weather or error intervened.

.


I'm a big Scheffler fan having been his scorer at Karsten Creek when he was 15.


But his take that the modern ball spins so little that a draw won't stay in the air is hilarious. So we've been right all along, more spin = more interesting golf.

[Tim Gavrich]

"I didn't want to hit a hybrid or a 4-iron off of that crazy hook slope."


In that fragment of a sentence, Schauffele succinctly captures what the hole has lost because of distance increases, and what it stands to gain in the wake of a rollback.

[Will Lozier]

"I didn't want to hit a hybrid or a 4-iron off of that crazy hook slope."


In that fragment of a sentence, Schauffele succinctly captures what the hole has lost because of distance increases, and what it stands to gain in the wake of a rollback.

+1

[Pat Burke]

"I didn't want to hit a hybrid or a 4-iron off of that crazy hook slope."


In that fragment of a sentence, Schauffele succinctly captures what the hole has lost because of distance increases, and what it stands to gain in the wake of a rollback.

Better said than what I was attempting to write

[JLahrman]

As long as the hole still produces a decent amount of 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, and 7s, I'm sure it will still be as much fun. But I'm not sure it will.

I did some math on last year's Masters scoring: https://www.masters.com/en_US/scores/stats/index.html

Assuming that "double bogey +" is a double bogey, the 13th hole had the highest standard deviation of any hole in the tournament, at .8089. In other words, that hole experienced the greatest variation in scores. That makes sense at a glance, it tied for the most eagles with #2 and had the third-most birdies - after #2 and #8 - but it also had twice as many bogeys than those holes and a lot more double bogeys.

The hole with the lowest standard deviation of scores (.538) was #4. It had the fewest birdies and only four doubles. In 283 attempts, players made a 3 or 4 269 times. Snore.

So the thing with lengthening 13 is that if a lot more players are going to be laying up, then the scores will likely gravitate towards 4 and 5. And the interesting thing about the players comments was that they sounded less likely to try to play the draw they need if they're hitting driver instead of 3W. So while the hole might be lengthened by 30 yards or whatever, it might play 50 yards longer.

[John Bouffard]

I think anything that makes more players lay up on that hole is a good thing, at least with regard to the fun of watching the tournament. The lay up on that hole is tricky, as there is a fair amount of slope in the fairway and on the green. While it's fun to watch a long, risky approach shot over water, it is also fun to watch them try to hit a delicate pitch off an uneven or hanging lie, especially to pin locations close to the water. Of course, until they begin playing the hole, we don't know how many players will lay up. I hope they haven't changed the hole from one where almost everyone goes for the green to one where almost everyone lays up.

[JLahrman]

I think anything that makes more players lay up on that hole is a good thing, at least with regard to the fun of watching the tournament. The lay up on that hole is tricky, as there is a fair amount of slope in the fairway and on the green. While it's fun to watch a long, risky approach shot over water, it is also fun to watch them try to hit a delicate pitch off an uneven or hanging lie, especially to pin locations close to the water. Of course, until they begin playing the hole, we don't know how many players will lay up. I hope they haven't changed the hole from one where almost everyone goes for the green to one where almost everyone lays up.

Hi John, I think everybody would like the decision to come back more into play. I hope it doesn't become a lay up hole either, but we'll have to see.

By far my favorite sequence at the 13th hole was in the final round of 1996, the Faldo-Norman H2H duel. Norman had pushed his drive into the pine straw. Faldo had hit a good drive but had a long shot off a tough lie if he wanted to get there in two. Aside from the length of time it took them each to play, and Venturi yammering on too much, it was riveting. It would be great if the players had to make this sort of decision more often.

It starts at 1:26:10 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fQmmVBkTw

And Faldo hit his shot at 1:33:32. So it took a minimum of 7 minutes(!!!) for Norman and Faldo to each play their shots. One of which was a lay up and one of which went for the green. Certainly not saying that 7 minutes is good for pace of play, but it does speak to the difficulty of the decision!

[Wade Whitehead]

No chance, as the perfect routing would cease to exist.

WW

[John Bouffard]

By far my favorite sequence at the 13th hole was in the final round of 1996, the Faldo-Norman H2H duel. Norman had pushed his drive into the pine straw. Faldo had hit a good drive but had a long shot off a tough lie if he wanted to get there in two. Aside from the length of time it took them each to play, and Venturi yammering on too much, it was riveting. It would be great if the players had to make this sort of decision more often.

It starts at 1:26:10 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fQmmVBkTw

And Faldo hit his shot at 1:33:32. So it took a minimum of 7 minutes(!!!) for Norman and Faldo to each play their shots. One of which was a lay up and one of which went for the green. Certainly not saying that 7 minutes is good for pace of play, but it does speak to the difficulty of the decision!

Just as an aside, I have watched those few minutes of that round you reference many times over the years. I agree it was a tremendously good shot, especially under the circumstances (lie, risk, major championship pressure, standing in the tournament at that time, etc.). I wonder how many people in the world were capable of pulling that shot off at that time.


I have also, more than once, took notice of him soling/rubbing that 4W behind the ball as he did, before settling on the 2I. Knowing the pristine condition and tightness of AGNC turf, I can't see that such an action could have done anything to improve his lie; but I have seen people accused of such by similar actions.

[JLahrman]

I have also, more than once, took notice of him soling/rubbing that 4W behind the ball as he did, before settling on the 2I. Knowing the pristine condition and tightness of AGNC turf, I can't see that such an action could have done anything to improve his lie; but I have seen people accused of such by similar actions.

If it had been certain, ahem, other players, and the ball had been in the rough I guess that accusation might carry more weight, but I don't think Faldo, either intentionally or unintentionally, improved his lie. I think the decision and the shot was just that difficult, and I'm hoping more players find themselves in that position. And let's be honest, if Faldo and Norman weren't going to get penalized for slow play then they weren't going to get penalized for improving their lie. Seven minutes!

[Charlie Goerges]

Thanks for the link, I watched it, it was a little frustrating how long it took, but it also made for good TV. I watched the whole round back when it happened and high school me had no problem staying alert and paying attention at the time. It was good then, hopefully the new tee can create more drama nowadays. Who knows, when the MLR ball comes into play and if it works properly, they can always put in a new tee closer to where it was before this year and  the continuity will be there.

[JLahrman]

Thanks for the link, I watched it, it was a little frustrating how long it took, but it also made for good TV. I watched the whole round back when it happened and high school me had no problem staying alert and paying attention at the time. It was good then, hopefully the new tee can create more drama nowadays. Who knows, when the MLR ball comes into play and if it works properly, they can always put in a new tee closer to where it was before this year and  the continuity will be there.

It will be back to 465 yards before you know it.

[Thomas Dai]

Bloody daft. Just rollback the damn ball. No course extensions necessary and a return to more exciting times when the Pros/elite players used long irons or fairway woods/metals for their approach shots or maybe even an occasional lay-up happened (it’s a par-5 after all).
Atb