[Michael Morandi]

If each hole  presents admirable challenges but is seemingly disconnected from each other, can such a course be highly rated?  This often happens on parkland courses where each hole is sheltered from the other   In other words, can the sum of the individual parts be greater than the whole?

[Tim Martin]

Pine Valley and Yale would be two that would meet the conditions you described. You could except the 1st four holes at Yale I guess but 5-18 are pretty sheltered.

[Tom_Doak]

It wasn't long ago that many people thought the standard of greatness was not being able to see any hole besides the one you were playing, because of Pine Valley.  Seriously.  I can remember several people telling me that.  I would ask them about The Old Course at St. Andrews and they would laugh at the thought that could be the standard.

[Michael Chadwick]

It wasn't long ago that many people thought the standard of greatness was not being able to see any hole besides the one you were playing, because of Pine Valley.  Seriously.  I can remember several people telling me that.  I would ask them about The Old Course at St. Andrews and they would laugh at the thought that could be the standard.

In the 90s, I distinctly recall, as a youngster, my father and uncle preferring the back nine at High Pointe not on account of the holes themselves, but because of the forested corridors.


To answer the question in the OP, though, I don't think the "disconnected" element that comes from individually framed holes is inherently detrimental to the quality of the course. If it's a characteristic of the natural terrain, the best courses are typically situated seamlessly in their specific environment, and the design will reflect that. Pinehurst 2, Swinley Forest, Bandon Trails, and St. George's Hill do not lose credibility because their majority of holes are intimately arranged.   

[Max Prokopy]

I happen to like those parkland styles in many ways.  I personally never felt that individually framed holes felt disconnected or subtracted from an experience.


A prime example would be a mountain course that has long views, none of which include other holes. 

[Stewart Abramson]

It wasn't long ago that many people thought the standard of greatness was not being able to see any hole besides the one you were playing, because of Pine Valley.  Seriously.  I can remember several people telling me that.  I would ask them about The Old Course at St. Andrews and they would laugh at the thought that could be the standard.

I think there are many golfers who still think that way

[Charlie Goerges]

If it's a characteristic of the natural terrain...

I think that's really the key to the whole thing. If it fits the nature of the land, do it. And we should also bear in mind that trees are not the only thing that can isolate holes from each other. In the Sand Hills region, holes are often separated by sand hills. Works great there as well.


The real problem is when people go for separation at the expense of the quality of the holes.

[Jeff Schley]

A beautiful shot at Hamilton Farm from the 17th tee comes to mind.  You see the green and hole 18 with the clubhouse in the distance perfectly framed by the trees.

[Michael Chadwick]

And we should also bear in mind that trees are not the only thing that can isolate holes from each other. In the Sand Hills region, holes are often separated by sand hills. Works great there as well.


The real problem is when people go for separation at the expense of the quality of the holes.

Great points, Charlie. Ballyneal's holes are mostly isolated from one another within the rolling chop hills. The spot where one may see a group neither directly in front or behind you is on 4 fairway and 7 green, though there are a few higher vistas on the back nine that let you peek at different holes as well.


The offenders for this thread are those parkland courses where tree growth, additional plantings, and mismanagement has evolved into separation that wasn't there originally. 

[Tom_Doak]

Great points, Charlie. Ballyneal's holes are mostly isolated from one another within the rolling chop hills. The spot where one may see a group neither directly in front or behind you is on 4 fairway and 7 green, though there are a few higher vistas on the back nine that let you peek at different holes as well.

I did actually make a conscious decision to get those holes to interact some, instead of having every hole out by itself, as at Sand Hills.  I personally prefer having spots on the course where players/members might interact, or get a little peek at an upcoming hole.

[Kalen Braley]

If it's a characteristic of the natural terrain...

I think that's really the key to the whole thing. If it fits the nature of the land, do it. And we should also bear in mind that trees are not the only thing that can isolate holes from each other. In the Sand Hills region, holes are often separated by sand hills. Works great there as well.

The real problem is when people go for separation at the expense of the quality of the holes.

Charlie,

Probably goes without saying, but I think a major qualifier for this should be, if it more or less fits the land and its not a major cart-ride from one hole to the next.

Living in the mountain west there are a few courses here with some terrific holes, but given the course is basically unwalkable and holes disjointed from each other its a fairly significant drawback...IMO of course.

[Charlie Goerges]

If it's a characteristic of the natural terrain...

I think that's really the key to the whole thing. If it fits the nature of the land, do it. And we should also bear in mind that trees are not the only thing that can isolate holes from each other. In the Sand Hills region, holes are often separated by sand hills. Works great there as well.

The real problem is when people go for separation at the expense of the quality of the holes.

Charlie,

Probably goes without saying, but I think a major qualifier for this should be, if it more or less fits the land and its not a major cart-ride from one hole to the next.

Living in the mountain west there are a few courses here with some terrific holes, but given the course is basically unwalkable and holes disjointed from each other its a fairly significant drawback...IMO of course.

It sounds like a reasonable qualifier. However, by itself, it likely would preclude at least a few courses from being built, possibly some pretty good ones. It might be a fair tradeoff though.

[Tim Gavrich]

The feeling of solitude can be a nice one to have on a golf course at times; Pilgrim's Run (Mike DeVries) near Grand Rapids, Mich. stands out in my experience as a course where that feeling of isolation adds to the sense of a journey.


But overall I like to have the sense that other people are nearby, enjoying themselves as much as I am. I reckon that if anything, promoting a feeling of togetherness and shared experience on a golf course becomes more attractive as the rest of life starts to feel more isolated and siloed.


When executed well, routing junctions where several holes meet are really nice additions to the flow of the round and the social experience. One course that does this really well is Crestview CC, a Geoffrey Cornish course in Agawam, Mass. There's a little roundabout and hut you'll pass on the way from 1 green to 2 tee, from 6 green to 7 tee and from 16 green to 17 tee.


Another Cornish course, Hop Meadow CC, where I first learned to play, has this quality as well. You walk by the snack bar on the way from 8 green to 9 tee, from 10 green to 11 tee and from 15 green to 16 tee. That's a lot of chances for a very good hot dog and/or an ice-cold Snickers (not always in that order).

[Joe Hancock]

I may be in the minority, but it seems we have been in an era of “individually framed” holes for the past 20 years’ worth of new courses and I’ve been on enough adventures. I’m sure there has been some core, intimate routings in the same timeframe…..

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