[Ira Fishman]

The numerous threads about architects should not design for the best of the best prompted me to think about courses where a significant aspect of the mandate to the architect was to attract/host a Professional tournament. Running through some them in my mind reinforces that such a mandate is not likely to produce compelling architecture.


Augusta National may be one the exceptions that proves the thesis. Are there other exceptions? The Ocean Course?


Butler National and TPC Potomac are the only two I have played that were designed with Professional tournaments in mind. Butler is quite good albeit extremely difficult. TPC Potomac is far from compelling in both of its iterations.


Ira

[Jim Sherma]

I have been told that Hershey East, 1970 George Fazio, was built to host a tour event that they did not end up ever pursuing. The course is difficult and was consistently one of if not the toughest course on the Nike Tour relative to par when it hosted that tour. Very good course with a lot of good subtle architecture. Nothing that makes your juices flow however and definitely not loved by the bulk of the membership.

[Mike Bodo]

Although I've not played it, I'd say the renovation work TD did at Memorial Park in Houston is an example of compelling architecture done with a professional golf tournament in mind. It's one of the few host courses of the Tour calendar I look forward to watching each year simply for the course and not who shows up. I'd argue the same can be said for Muirfield Village, Harbor Town, TPC Sawgrass/Scottsdale, Kapalua - Plantation, Bay Hill - Champions and Doral - Blue Monster. These courses may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I enjoy watching the golf played on them.

[Jim Hoak]

I'd put the new Dallas course built by Gil Hanse for the PGA of America in this category.  It will launch later this year for the PGA Seniors.  I'll be interested in the reaction.

[Mike Bodo]

Jim,


I'm anxious to see how the Hanse course at PGA Frisco looks and will be watching the Senior PGA Championship this year with a keen eye. If we wish to take this one step further and go internationally, I'd add Valderamma, Castle Stuart (now Cabot Highlands), Adare Manor, Kingsbarns and Le Golf National to the mix.

[Jeff Schley]

PGA West Stadium, TPC Sawgrass.  I would also say French Lick resort, over 8,000 yards what else was Pete Dye striving for? Same for Whistling Straits.  Of course the twenty ten course at Celtic Manor.

[Max Prokopy]

Gil Hanse's Rio Olympic Course is one.

[Ira Fishman]

Thanks for the additional courses. I have played Kapalua Plantation, Castle Stuart, and Kingsbarns (was unaware attracting a tournament was part of the design brief). None of them is very high on my list of favorites from an architectural perspective.


Ira

[Mike Bodo]

Thanks for the additional courses. I have played Kapalua Plantation, Castle Stuart, and Kingsbarns (was unaware attracting a tournament was part of the design brief).
Ira

I don't know for fact Kingbarns was built purposely for tournament golf, but presume it had given it started hosting the Alfred Dunhill Cup a year after it opened. It's also hosted the Ricoh Women's British Open in 2013 and The 2010 Open Championship Qualifying.

[Garland Bayley]

You can divide this into two groups. Pre modern ball, and post modern ball.
Post modern ball, Chambers Bay and Erin Hills were designed to host a major championship, i.e., professionals.
Pre modern ball Pumpkin Ridge, Witch Hollow was designed to host a major championship, but then the modern ball happened, and the course became almost instantly obsolete for its design goal. Last year by making a composite routing from the two courses at Pumpkin Ridge, they were finally able to attract a professional LIV tournament.

[Pat Burke]

I’d rather see course built for professional tournaments than continuous screwing around with of great old courses

[Mike Bodo]

I’d rather see course built for professional tournaments than continuous screwing around with of great old courses

+1

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,


I've said the same for years, but no one listens.......Bifurcate courses, not clubs and balls, basically.  We need 150 tournament courses out of 15,000, or 1%.  Most of the others could shorten to about 6800 yards from the back tees and only lose 1% of play.  The turf reduction would save water, and the old, now wasted back tee land could be native area, community gardens, playgrounds, etc., and whatever works in each location.


Isleworth is built as a home course for Tour pros to practice for the tour, and IMHO would qualify as a course built for pros.

[Dan_Callahan]

Hasn't Trump built several courses with the stated ambition of hosting a professional tournament?

[Mike Bodo]

Pat,


I've said the same for years, but no one listens.......Bifurcate courses, not clubs and balls, basically.  We need 150 tournament courses out of 15,000, or 1%.  Most of the others could shorten to about 6800 yards from the back tees and only lose 1% of play.  The turf reduction would save water, and the old, now wasted back tee land could be native area, community gardens, playgrounds, etc., and whatever works in each location.


Isleworth is built as a home course for Tour pros to practice for the tour, and IMHO would qualify as a course built for pros.

Jeff,


Weren't the TPC network of courses built with the intended purpose of hosting professional golf tournaments? The PGA Tour calendar is littered with TPC courses and there are a few that host Champions Tour events. I hate most of them, but they serve a purpose.

[Mike Bodo]

Hasn't Trump built several courses with the stated ambition of hosting a professional tournament?

His primary reason for being in the golf business is to rub shoulders with the pros and have his oversized ego stroked. So, yes!

[Tim Martin]

TPC Boston
TPC River Highlands

Designed to host Professional tournaments more specifically for the PGA Tour.

[Tom_Doak]

The main reasons for any club wanting to host a tournament are ego and rubbing shoulders!


I don’t think tournament golf was a major part of the Castle Stuart design brief.  They certainly wanted it to challenge great players as well as tourists, and hosting a tournament was proof of that, but I don’t think it was a goal - see above.


For that matter, a tournament wasn’t part of the original design brief for Augusta National.  They only did it when they were bankrupt and needed attention.  (Worked out pretty well for them.)


The Ocean Course at Kiawah should definitely be included - they had a commitment for the Ryder Cup before they started!


PS. All TPC courses are designed for tournaments, by definition, but the reason most of them are so bad is that they are also housing projects where the developer paid for the TPC branding.

[David_Tepper]

"Augusta National may be one the exceptions that proves the thesis. Are there other exceptions? The Ocean Course?"

Ira -

It would appear (to me at least ) that the primary reason AGNC has been successful in doing so is that they have resources (both financially and logistically) to lengthen/alter the course as needed to challenge the players at the Masters.

If it was not for that, the winning scores at the Masters might be 20 to 25 under par. 


DT
 

[Thomas Dai]

These guys (and gals) are good, so the saying goes. And they are good too, damn good, staggeringly good.
Building courses, long ones likely, just for the pros though would use up even more of the planets finite amount of land and water etc. Just use the courses we’ve got but introduce measures like say only 8 clubs, no yardage books, no caddies etc.
And what about those lads and lasses in the transition area between good club/amateur player and the paid ranks? And the lessor levels of the pro ranks too? Where they play needs to be considered too.
Atb

[Tim Gavrich]

I've said the same for years, but no one listens.......Bifurcate courses, not clubs and balls, basically.  We need 150 tournament courses out of 15,000, or 1%.  Most of the others could shorten to about 6800 yards from the back tees and only lose 1% of play.  The turf reduction would save water, and the old, now wasted back tee land could be native area, community gardens, playgrounds, etc., and whatever works in each location.

"Tournament courses"...what kind of tournament? A PGA Tour event?


What about a state amateur or state open, which also includes players who hit the ball as hard as PGA Tour pros, albeit less straight?

What about college tournaments? What about AJGA events? Those kids hit it outrageous distances, too. Are they supposed to compete on too-small courses while they aspire to compete at the highest level?

I think you're going to need more than 150 courses to satisfy that.

It's only been in my lifetime (b. 1989) that golf equipment has mutated to the point where the best golf courses for the majority of golfers are not also suitable for tournament play. That's, what, 5% of the entire history of the game?

That we even need to consider "bifurcating courses" feels like proof that the balance between the elasticity of a typical course and the elasticity of driving distances across the range of skill levels is broken. It's the equipment that needs to change, not the golf courses.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,


So, it might be 200, maybe 250-300, assuming some courses can do double duty.


About 50 for the PGA Tour, maybe 40 for LPGA, and keep the rotation of 10-15 each for US Open and PGA.  Most regional events are contested at less than the 7,500 yards for the PGA Tour, being set up to "protect the bottom half of the field".  (Last time I checked, a few years ago, the average or median PGA Tour course length was 7,209, oddly a distance most top club players seem to like.  They are a bit shorter than the top PGA Tour players and still like to have fun, hit greens, and score well.)


However, I agree it will take some doing for high end clubs to take out the back tees and it may be enough to make them 15 x 15 feet squares with lots of natives between them and the fw.  The real problem in this proposal is that it would probably take an outside board (like the EPA) to force this on golf, unless we can somehow self-govern looking to the greater good rather than our own egos about rankings, difficulty, etc.

[Ira Fishman]

So Tom Doak makes the point that ANGC was not designed with the Masters in mind, and David Tepper makes the point that now it has become the recurring Major Course that resources enable it to perpetuate its architectural integrity for Professionals.


Which leads back to the original question of which courses designed for the Pros are top tier architurally? And if that is an oxymoron, perhaps the suggestion of bifurcation of courses is the rational solution.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

I understand your viewpoints and opinions on this issue in respect to your present and past roles at the ASGCA.

But does the pragmatic part of you see that bifurcating the ball (in the rare event a top notch event is held) is much better than spending unnecessary time, money, resources, and impact on the environment for hundreds of new professional courses?  Surely it seems using what we already have is the far superior solution, especially given a modified ball would only impact a very tiny group of golfers, at a particular course maybe once or twice per year?

[mike_beene]

I would add Maridoe

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