News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Making Angles Matter
« on: February 24, 2023, 09:43:18 AM »
While there's been a lot of interesting discussion of whether angles matter in the other thread, it seems that the main participants have become a bit entrenched in their positions, 'Team Angles' and 'Team Data' if you will.

This leaves me in a tough position because I'm a data guy and think that there are some holes on which having a good angle on a second (or third) shot probably matters a lot for how you will score from that point. But big data, which pool very different types of holes together, don't allow us to make those kinds of distinctions between holes.

Still, I'm almost certain that Team Data is right about one thing, which is the most important thing if you're concerned about scoring: if there's any kind of significant hazard on the good angle side, it's not worth it to challenge this hazard to get the better angle. Any benefit to be gained in strokes on the second shot will be more than offset by the loss on the first shot from hitting it in the hazard a few more times. This means that chasing angles on a standard type of 'good' hole design, where there's a significant hazard up one side (deep bunkers, pond, ob) and being near it gives you a less-impeded direct line at the green, is a fool's errand.


But what if we substantially reduced the risk in being on the good side of the fairway for the first shot? Would angles matter then? The data might be telling us that the problem with a lot of classical strategic design is that the risks and rewards aren't properly balanced--there's too much risk for the amount of reward and it's unlikely that you can ever create enough of an advantage in the angle for the second shot to offset more than a moderate amount of risk on the first. So maybe we shouldn't toss out the idea of designing holes so that the shape/contour of the green favor shots from one side of the fairway, but reduce the severity of the hazards on that side or even eliminate them altogether.

I have seen several holes that do this and I realize that they're among my favorites because I instinctively aim away from hazards and on these holes, I find myself aiming for the correct side of the fairway. These holes benefit those who think backward from the green to the tee without requiring that they take on some shot for which the reward doesn't outweigh the risk.

Two examples are the 17th hole at Woking and the 8th hole at Pacific Dunes. The former really doesn't have any driving hazards at all but there are two bunkers guarding both the approach and the green on the right side. The green also slopes front-right to back-left, making it very tricky to land and hold the approach on the green from the right side. As we can see below, there isn't any trouble to driving up the left side and since you can gain a (maybe modest) benefit from driving it here, you should probably try.





It's a similar thing with the 8th hole at Pacific Dunes. Provided you can make a short carry over bunkers on the right, the fairway is wide open and neither side of the fairway looks too intimidating. But the green is sharply angled from front-left to back-right meaning that if you're up the right side, you'll have to carry a bunker and play into the narrowest aspect of the green, which runs away into junk long-left. So you'll gain a pretty good advantage just by playing out toward the trees on the left.





I accept the point of Lou Stagner, Erik Barzeski, and others that we shouldn't chase angles most of the time. But I'm not convinced that angles don't matter. I suspect that they do matter on holes like 17 at Woking and 8 at Pacific Dunes and suggest that designing holes like this can help make angles matter.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2023, 09:54:04 AM »
Brett,


I tried to make the same point less eloquently than you in the other thread. Your two examples are spot on.


Ira

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2023, 10:04:16 AM »
Brett

While I take your point and agree, the Woking example doesn't work for me. That fairway is not wide enough for me to flirt with possible rough issues. I am gonna try to keep that drive anywhere in the fairway unless I know the left rough is well down. And this choice is with the knowledge of the problems with trying to carry the right bunkers and hold the green. Without first hand knowledge of the left rough, I would rather risk sand and going long rather than a possible hack out from rough and still have to deal with the runaway green.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 24, 2023, 10:31:17 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2023, 10:32:08 AM »
It's a similar thing with the 8th hole at Pacific Dunes. Provided you can make a short carry over bunkers on the right, the fairway is wide open and neither side of the fairway looks too intimidating. But the green is sharply angled from front-left to back-right meaning that if you're up the right side, you'll have to carry a bunker and play into the narrowest aspect of the green, which runs away into junk long-left. So you'll gain a pretty good advantage just by playing out toward the trees on the left.



Brett:


First, I've never told a golfer to hit it over the right bunkers (with the intention of ending up past them), there's only rough and trees over those bunkers from the tee.  The rough isn't bad, but the lies can be iffy.


Second, 8 is the perfect example of working back from the pin.  I'd rather be up the left for a front (left side) or middle pin, but I'd definitely rather be closer to the right edge of the fairway for a back pin.


And then you have to throw in the wind.  The tee ball line can change for a ton of players when the hole is downwind, as the left trees are now in play.  When it's into the wind, we're pretty much hoping people don't get sideways on the breeze, with dead middle being the best option most of the time.


And there's always shot shape lurking in the background.  Starting lines for the tee ball and approach might vary a good amount depending on how the player generally shapes their shots and the direction of the wind.  Proving there's always an exception to every rule, I have told players with a big hook to start it over the right bunkers, but only when that hook is highly predictable.  Definitely had to do that for one guy who had a 30-40 yard late hook that was unlike any other ball flight I've ever seen.


Even on the approach you might be looking to play a line that keeps a backstop in play, or for certain players to some pins trying to make short left of the green the miss.


For kind of a basic piece of land, there's a ton going on at 8.  One of my favorites out here.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2023, 10:43:17 AM »
Brett,

Great topic, but I don't agree with the dichotomey between Team Data and Team Angles.

I've spent my entire career on the Team Data side and fall squarely in the camp of Team Angles on this issue.  But my opinion can be still be changed if Team Data can be vetted. Namely if the following kind of evidence is presented.

- The methodology
- The controls
- The measurement taking procedures
- The actual raw data
- 3rd party peer review and/or replicated results.

But certainly Team Data is doing themselves no favors with broad brush strokes and mandates to "just accept it" as fact. And until then, their assertion is a hypothesis at best..


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2023, 10:53:58 AM »
Brett,

Great topic, but I don't agree with the dichotomey between Team Data and Team Angles.

I've spent my entire career on the Team Data side and fall squarely in the camp of Team Angles on this issue.  But my opinion can be still be changed if Team Data can be vetted. Namely if the following kind of evidence is presented.

- The methodology
- The controls
- The measurement taking procedures
- The actual raw data
- 3rd party peer review and/or replicated results.

But certainly Team Data is doing themselves no favors with broad brush strokes and mandates to "just accept it" as fact. And until then, their assertion is a hypothesis at best..

I definitely believe in data, but for there are shades and that is when self awareness and experience matter a ton.

This discussion reminds me of face offs in hockey. Analytics say the winner doesn't matter over the course of season. What analytics don't say is that face offs matter when they matter. In this age of salary cap hockey one face off win could lead a goal which could earn one point for a team and could be the difference between making the playoffs or not. Does that mean teams should seek out face off specialists? Not normally, but all things being equal, I want a center who can win face offs.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2023, 11:06:00 AM »
Brett,

Great topic, but I don't agree with the dichotomey between Team Data and Team Angles.

I've spent my entire career on the Team Data side and fall squarely in the camp of Team Angles on this issue.  But my opinion can be still be changed if Team Data can be vetted. Namely if the following kind of evidence is presented.

- The methodology
- The controls
- The measurement taking procedures
- The actual raw data
- 3rd party peer review and/or replicated results.

But certainly Team Data is doing themselves no favors with broad brush strokes and mandates to "just accept it" as fact. And until then, their assertion is a hypothesis at best..

I definitely believe in data, but for there are shades and that is when self awareness and experience matter a ton.

This discussion reminds me of face offs in hockey. Analytics say the winner doesn't matter over the course of season. What analytics don't say is that face offs matter when they matter. In this age of salary cap hockey one face off win could lead a goal which could earn one point for a team and could be the difference between making the playoffs or not. Does that mean teams should seek out face off specialists? Not normally, but all things being equal, I want a center who can win face offs.

Ciao


Sean:


You probably don't even want to get started on the game of lacrosse.  Right now the college game is basically dominated by who has the best face-off guy.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2023, 11:09:05 AM »
Brett,

Great topic, but I don't agree with the dichotomey between Team Data and Team Angles.

I've spent my entire career on the Team Data side and fall squarely in the camp of Team Angles on this issue.  But my opinion can be still be changed if Team Data can be vetted. Namely if the following kind of evidence is presented.

- The methodology
- The controls
- The measurement taking procedures
- The actual raw data
- 3rd party peer review and/or replicated results.

But certainly Team Data is doing themselves no favors with broad brush strokes and mandates to "just accept it" as fact. And until then, their assertion is a hypothesis at best..

I definitely believe in data, but for there are shades and that is when self awareness and experience matter a ton.

This discussion reminds me of face offs in hockey. Analytics say the winner doesn't matter over the course of season. What analytics don't say is that face offs matter when they matter. In this age of salary cap hockey one face off win could lead a goal which could earn one point for a team and could be the difference between making the playoffs or not. Does that mean teams should seek out face off specialists? Not normally, but all things being equal, I want a center who can win face offs.

Ciao
Sean:

You probably don't even want to get started on the game of lacrosse.  Right now the college game is basically dominated by who has the best face-off guy.

Sven


Agreed Sven,

I kept game stats for my daughters high school and college team and winning draws is massive. They rarely lost when they had a sizeable Draw Control advantage. 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2023, 11:17:04 AM »
Gentlemen


Let's keep the conversation civil and have no more of this hockey/lacrosse nonsense.


Niall

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2023, 11:25:02 AM »
Is there a parallel in cricket?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2023, 11:28:21 AM »
Rough is still a "hazard" (to varying degrees based on the player, the kind/thickness/length, etc.). Really tall rough is definitely a "hazard." Trees are definitely well into "hazard" territory.

On a hole with no traditional "hazards" (bunkers, creeks, bushes) right near the fairway, your best angle is still often down the middle of the corridor to maximize your chances of being in the short grass.

Shot Zones (dispersion patterns) are quite wide. You need a LOT of width to start aiming at sides of fairways because you're considering your approach shot angle. (Or, as you'll find at some munis, etc. some REALLY negligible rough that plays almost the same as the fairways at that course.)
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2023, 11:34:30 AM »
It seems like only yesterday when we were referring to short grass around greens as being a hazard of sorts. Now all sorts of longer grass is a hazard also. Is there anywhere that isn't ?


Niall

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2023, 11:37:33 AM »
Is there a parallel in cricket?
Niall's a Scot.  He wouldn't know.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2023, 11:39:09 AM »
Is there a parallel in cricket?
Niall's a Scot.  He wouldn't know.


Ah, he meant a civilized sport like caber tossing.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2023, 11:43:55 AM »
Is there a parallel in cricket?
Niall's a Scot.  He wouldn't know.


Ah, he meant a civilized sport like caber tossing.


I hope that's not meant as a euphemism !


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2023, 12:19:26 PM »
Is there a parallel in cricket?
Niall's a Scot.  He wouldn't know.


Now, now Mr Pearce. Surely you know that at one time cricket was just as popular in Scotland as golf and maybe even more so. In the early 1870's there were over 200 cricket clubs in Scotland. At that time there was just over 70 golf courses in Scotland, no doubt some if not most with more than one club attached, but still it shows the popularity of cricket in Scotland.


Niall   

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2023, 01:23:59 PM »
Is there a parallel in cricket?
Niall's a Scot.  He wouldn't know.
Now, now Mr Pearce. Surely you know that at one time cricket was just as popular in Scotland as golf and maybe even more so. In the early 1870's there were over 200 cricket clubs in Scotland. At that time there was just over 70 golf courses in Scotland, no doubt some if not most with more than one club attached, but still it shows the popularity of cricket in Scotland.
Niall


Believe that a 6-hole golf course is laid out over the usual ‘pitch/ground’ at Poloc Cricket Club during the non-cricket season.
Atb

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2023, 08:29:43 AM »
Brett

While I take your point and agree, the Woking example doesn't work for me. That fairway is not wide enough for me to flirt with possible rough issues. I am gonna try to keep that drive anywhere in the fairway unless I know the left rough is well down.

Sean,

And you're one of the people I had in mind with this thread and this example! The rough may not be as bad on the right but you get a tree limbs problem over there. I was always aiming a bit left and didn't mind if I was in the rough just off the edge of the fairway.

Second, 8 is the perfect example of working back from the pin.  I'd rather be up the left for a front (left side) or middle pin, but I'd definitely rather be closer to the right edge of the fairway for a back pin.

Even on the approach you might be looking to play a line that keeps a backstop in play, or for certain players to some pins trying to make short left of the green the miss.

Sven,

I haven't played it enough to know this, so I'm not saying that you're wrong, but the point about being on the right side of the fairway for back-right pins would surprise me and I'm not sure I'd figure it out. Looking at my picture from behind the green, it looks like the backstop is at the back-right of the green, meaning you'd still be playing more directly into it from the left side. But this may be less important than the fact that if you go up the right side, you have a shorter shot.



On a hole with no traditional "hazards" (bunkers, creeks, bushes) right near the fairway, your best angle is still often down the middle of the corridor to maximize your chances of being in the short grass.

Shot Zones (dispersion patterns) are quite wide. You need a LOT of width to start aiming at sides of fairways because you're considering your approach shot angle. (Or, as you'll find at some munis, etc. some REALLY negligible rough that plays almost the same as the fairways at that course.)

Erik,

But if there's no real hazard on either side of the fairway and angle/slope of the green and hazards around it greatly favor a shot from one side, why wouldn't it be better to aim up that side? You're saying that all else equal off the tee, no matter how much everything around the green favors an approach from one side of the fairway, you're still better off aiming up the middle? I'm not convinced. I'll give you that as you start to increase the degree of hazard on the good angle side, it may quickly start to make sense to aim away from that. But if everything around the green is designed to favor a shot from one part of the fairway, there has to be some threshold of hazard on the good angle side, below which it makes sense to aim over there. Maybe that threshold is very low--that's something I'd want to know.

Maybe I'm nitpicking. Maybe Lou Stagner and co have already figured out 90% of what good golfers (let alone the average golfer) need to think about when playing holes and trying to do more than that would make things too complicated. Still, I think that if you had a course with a bunch of holes like the two that I've discussed above, assuming you're a decent golfer, you'd be better off examining how the holes are designed and trying to play to one side of the fairway than just aiming up the middle on every hole.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2023, 09:10:00 AM »

Sven,

I haven't played it enough to know this, so I'm not saying that you're wrong, but the point about being on the right side of the fairway for back-right pins would surprise me and I'm not sure I'd figure it out. Looking at my picture from behind the green, it looks like the backstop is at the back-right of the green, meaning you'd still be playing more directly into it from the left side. But this may be less important than the fact that if you go up the right side, you have a shorter shot.



Brett:


Its a better angle for dealing with the front bunker and for utilizing the kick-late short and right of the green.  The easiest way to get it close is not to use the backstop (a miss long is not a place you want to be), but to have the ball land short of pin high on the right and let it kick down the hill.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2023, 09:32:05 AM »
The problem with this dicussion is that the vast majority of amateurs - even low single digit handicappers - have a particular shot shape they play to. Few are able to work the ball left to right and right to left consistently enough to acount for approach angles. As an example, my typical driver shot shape is a baby fade. However, if I'm playing a par 4 that's a dogleg left with an approach to a green that favors an angle from from the left side of the fairway, I'm not going to all of a sudden see if I can hit a rare draw off the tee only for something really bad to happen and a) either be way out of position or b) dead on my second. Instead, I'll play my traditional fade and if pin is back right and there's a bunker fronting it, I'll play my second to the middle of the green and gladly walk off it with a 2-putt par. However, were I to have a very high lofted club for my second from that position (9 iron or higher), I may go after the pin - depending on the depth of the green.


Now, let's flip the script. If the same par 4 were a dog leg right and the angle of approach still favored a shot from the left side of the fairway, I still may play conservate and start my ball left of center should a) there be hazards along the left side of the fairway, i.e. bunkers, water or O.B. or if trees closely lined that side of the fairway. Were I to start the ball on my drive just left of the fairway and it didn't fade or worse, I pulled it, there's a good possibility I'm dead for my second. Thus, better to take as much risk out of the shot as possible and play for the middle of the fairway and at worst, play my second from the right side with a more challenging approach.


To further illustrate the fools errand it is for most amateurs to chase angles. I just returned from a golf trip to the Palm Springs/Desert area and had the good fortune of being paired with a gentlemen who drove the ball considerably shorter than me, but because he was way more consistent with his tee ball and played from the fairway on nearly every approach, scored much better. It dawned on me there that the surest way to improve scoring is simply to play from consistently better lies. Unless you're an aspiring pro, forget angles and just keep the ball in the short grass and attack pins where they present themselves. The best players at any club have a "go to" shot shape they stick with and make work for them. The rare par 4 of 5 holes that present an angle benefit and play to their strengths they may try and take on with a precisely shaped drive and second, but by and large they're happy to be in the heart of the fairway and if they have a strong enough short iron game they'll go after pins regardless of the risks.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2023, 09:49:12 AM »
   Beware of “scientific data” that disproves common sense and experience. Leaving the pin in rarely helps; removing trees makes courses easier (better maybe, but easier):  and having a better angle to a green is an advantage (although not necessarily a big enough advantage to take the risk). This exhausting discussion is no more than an exercise in disproving common sense.  More often than not, common sense makes sense.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 10:17:57 AM by Jim_Coleman »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2023, 08:36:42 PM »
But if there's no real hazard on either side of the fairway and angle/slope of the green and hazards around it greatly favor a shot from one side, why wouldn't it be better to aim up that side? You're saying that all else equal off the tee, no matter how much everything around the green favors an approach from one side of the fairway, you're still better off aiming up the middle?
I answered this in probably the other topic in regards to #9 at Pine Needles.

Short answer: Shot Zones are large and the "wrong angle" from the fairway is almost always better than the "right angle" from the rough or worse (trees, tall rough, etc.). So, even IF (and that's a big IF) the scoring is different by small fractions of a stroke from one side of the fairway than the other, introducing a bias toward the side of the fairway inevitably introduces a bias to WORSE areas (rough and other "hazardous"-even-if-not-"hazards"-in-the-traditional-sense areas).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2023, 03:54:10 AM »
Brett

While I take your point and agree, the Woking example doesn't work for me. That fairway is not wide enough for me to flirt with possible rough issues. I am gonna try to keep that drive anywhere in the fairway unless I know the left rough is well down.

Sean,

And you're one of the people I had in mind with this thread and this example! The rough may not be as bad on the right but you get a tree limbs problem over there. I was always aiming a bit left and didn't mind if I was in the rough just off the edge of the fairway.

Second, 8 is the perfect example of working back from the pin.  I'd rather be up the left for a front (left side) or middle pin, but I'd definitely rather be closer to the right edge of the fairway for a back pin.

Even on the approach you might be looking to play a line that keeps a backstop in play, or for certain players to some pins trying to make short left of the green the miss.

Sven,

I haven't played it enough to know this, so I'm not saying that you're wrong, but the point about being on the right side of the fairway for back-right pins would surprise me and I'm not sure I'd figure it out. Looking at my picture from behind the green, it looks like the backstop is at the back-right of the green, meaning you'd still be playing more directly into it from the left side. But this may be less important than the fact that if you go up the right side, you have a shorter shot.



On a hole with no traditional "hazards" (bunkers, creeks, bushes) right near the fairway, your best angle is still often down the middle of the corridor to maximize your chances of being in the short grass.

Shot Zones (dispersion patterns) are quite wide. You need a LOT of width to start aiming at sides of fairways because you're considering your approach shot angle. (Or, as you'll find at some munis, etc. some REALLY negligible rough that plays almost the same as the fairways at that course.)

Erik,

But if there's no real hazard on either side of the fairway and angle/slope of the green and hazards around it greatly favor a shot from one side, why wouldn't it be better to aim up that side? You're saying that all else equal off the tee, no matter how much everything around the green favors an approach from one side of the fairway, you're still better off aiming up the middle? I'm not convinced. I'll give you that as you start to increase the degree of hazard on the good angle side, it may quickly start to make sense to aim away from that. But if everything around the green is designed to favor a shot from one part of the fairway, there has to be some threshold of hazard on the good angle side, below which it makes sense to aim over there. Maybe that threshold is very low--that's something I'd want to know.

Maybe I'm nitpicking. Maybe Lou Stagner and co have already figured out 90% of what good golfers (let alone the average golfer) need to think about when playing holes and trying to do more than that would make things too complicated. Still, I think that if you had a course with a bunch of holes like the two that I've discussed above, assuming you're a decent golfer, you'd be better off examining how the holes are designed and trying to play to one side of the fairway than just aiming up the middle on every hole.

Sorry Brett. I am not good enough to take that sort of risk. The fairway isn't wide or visually inviting. My chances of getting a 4 are fairly low regardless of where I am. My bigger concern would be where the hole is. If the hole is at the back of the green I am even less inclined to play angles. On the other hand, if the hole is tucked up front right, the angles are far more important. But it's a tough ask for me to hit safely left and judge the approach well enough to ensure a comfortable 4. If the fairway was 15 yards wider or the rough down, I might be inclined to give angles a go. My thinking is that if I miss the drive or approach I still have a good chance to get a 5.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2023, 05:34:34 AM »
   Beware of “scientific data” that disproves common sense and experience. Leaving the pin in rarely helps; removing trees makes courses easier (better maybe, but easier):  and having a better angle to a green is an advantage (although not necessarily a big enough advantage to take the risk). This exhausting discussion is no more than an exercise in disproving common sense.  More often than not, common sense makes sense.


Jim


Agreed. I think what the original Angles thread showed is that if you allow enough caveats you can make your theory work ie. absence of run, wind, slope etc.


What I think is more interesting in this discussion is that emphasis is on not negating angles but instead accentuating them and thereby adding to the enjoyment of the game.


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Making Angles Matter
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2023, 05:47:02 AM »
Niall,


As a few of us said repeatedly on the other thread, angles don’t matter as much as we’d all like them to… so as designers, I agree we should look for opportunities to accentuate those angles so that they can make a difference to choices (whilst still realising the limitations and not doing it with blinkers on).