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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« on: February 18, 2023, 01:33:49 PM »
Is there any reason 10 at Riviera wouldn’t be a better hole if the trees left of the green were removed and the fairway were extended through that area and then well to the left around the short left bunker?


The reason nobody lays up is that there’s nowhere good to lay up to, because the ideal angle is from the cart path behind the trees in the left rough. Although most seem to admit that it’s hit and hope to play for the green.


I remember for the U.S. Open at Merion, a common complaint here was that rough was grown on the right side of number 10, which normally provides the best angle into that green. But the best angle into 10 at Riviera is in the rough, and behind some trees, too.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2023, 01:54:15 PM »
Not necessarily in relation to this hole, but for a decent bunker player the optimum lay-up could well be in a bunker, especially these days given the manicured nature of bunkers at elite events.
Atb

David Federman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2023, 10:37:10 AM »
Highly recommend viewing Tiger's post round 3 presser.  Tiger provided a great analysis on the differences in playing Riviera in general and the 10th hole in particular from when he first started on tour to today. (analysis of 10 starts at 2:40 on video).


https://youtu.be/AtG3JL7HrDY
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 10:47:28 AM by David Federman »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2023, 06:42:24 PM »
I remember for the U.S. Open at Merion, a common complaint here was that rough was grown on the right side of number 10, which normally provides the best angle into that green. But the best angle into 10 at Riviera is in the rough, and behind some trees, too.


Matt


On another thread there are many who are arguing that angles don't matter and that the stats back that up. I don't know Riveria or have seen it on TV but are you suggestion that playing from the rough behind the trees is not only viable but produces the best results in terms of approach ?


Niall

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2023, 08:32:25 PM »
I remember for the U.S. Open at Merion, a common complaint here was that rough was grown on the right side of number 10, which normally provides the best angle into that green. But the best angle into 10 at Riviera is in the rough, and behind some trees, too.


Matt


On another thread there are many who are arguing that angles don't matter and that the stats back that up. I don't know Riveria or have seen it on TV but are you suggestion that playing from the rough behind the trees is not only viable but produces the best results in terms of approach ?


Niall


Well, I'm saying that the most ideal result (near/on front-left of the green) is SO incredibly hard to accomplish—and anything right of that is SO bad—that the left rough/trees becomes the lesser evil. And you might as well choose the lesser evil, because none of the places that would actually give you the preferred angle into the back part of the green (the red line) are viable. They're all in or behind trees.


The angle matters on 10 at Riv because from anywhere on the right, the green is very shallow and slopes steeply away. Also, because the hole is so short, a good vs. bad teeshot could have a 180° different angle into the green! You don't get that on 500 yard holes. The problem on 10 at Riv is that it's virtually impossible to hit your tee shot to anywhere that actually provides a good angle. The result is a hole that can be very hard, but I'm not sure how strategic it is these days.



Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2023, 11:34:06 PM »
Is there any reason 10 at Riviera wouldn’t be a better hole if the trees left of the green were removed and the fairway were extended through that area and then well to the left around the short left bunker?

The reason nobody lays up is that there’s nowhere good to lay up to, because the ideal angle is from the cart path behind the trees in the left rough. Although most seem to admit that it’s hit and hope to play for the green.


I like this premise a lot and think it would be awesome if Riviera were to explore something like it.

There are some challenges in doing that (where to put the cart path, how to integrate it with the nearby 11th tee, etc.), but I couldn't agree more that they should find a way to make the "correct" angle lay up a viable choice.

In days gone by, they used to maintain this area as relatively well-manicured rough as opposed to the more browned-out, native type of rough that you see in some of the barrancas, etc. This was mostly prior to the reconfiguring of the eleventh member's tee and the addition of some of the mounding long and left of the tenth green. It was not unreasonable at this time (when the rough was down) to eschew the fairway and deliberately play to that area.

Those who did so believed it was easier dealing with the obstacle of the trees (with a LW) from a good angle than it was dealing with the slope from the far inferior angle back in the fairway. With a decent enough lie, you could easily hoist a wedge over the trees and get it back to the back hole locations. Furthermore, from this angle, you were able to play your shot back into the green's right to left contour, rather than across and/or down that slope from the current lay up zone.

I'm not even sure it would be necessary to remove the trees in order to do this...part of me thinks that the trees would make for an interesting complication for those who wish to take the better angle. It would also add value to the current lay up zone as that would be devoid of the obstacle of the trees.

It would take a little creativity to make all of this look good given the 11th hole constraints and the alternate driving range nearby, but I could imagine blending the 10th fairway and the 11th tee complex in a similar fashion to how they've done it with the back of the 5th green and the 6th tee complex.

Of course, an easy counter argument would be that this is widely considered one of the great short four-par holes in the world and it would be a travesty to do anything too dramatic with it. I can certainly understand the risk in over-tinkering here.

Perhaps most of all, I really hope steps are not taken to soften the green or in any way remove the bite of the short-game test it presents. I know that every LA Open there are complaints about how it has gotten too severe, but for professional golfers playing at the highest level there is nothing that appears unfair to me about the challenges the hole currently presents.

I know at times it looks like these pros are making fools of themselves around that green, but most of the time there was a par/bogey option that could have been taken somewhere along the way once the player got out of position. The real big numbers start coming when you get out of position and try to do something daring to save the shot you don't want to drop.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2023, 05:06:27 AM »
I remember for the U.S. Open at Merion, a common complaint here was that rough was grown on the right side of number 10, which normally provides the best angle into that green. But the best angle into 10 at Riviera is in the rough, and behind some trees, too.


Matt


On another thread there are many who are arguing that angles don't matter and that the stats back that up. I don't know Riveria or have seen it on TV but are you suggestion that playing from the rough behind the trees is not only viable but produces the best results in terms of approach ?


Niall
Given how many players "missed" in the trees on the left, I think that's true.  The best miss on the hole was in the cack and trees on the left.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2023, 11:00:05 PM »


It would take a little creativity to make all of this look good given the 11th hole constraints and the alternate driving range nearby, but I could imagine blending the 10th fairway and the 11th tee complex in a similar fashion to how they've done it with the back of the 5th green and the 6th tee complex.


Sam, I had the same thoughts watching the coverage this past weekend. Make that left fairway bunker act as a 2nd centerline bunker and have balls release all the way onto 11 tee like they do onto 6 tee. That pitch from back there is incredibly delicate and letting the ball run further away from the green would test the pros while letting member play have some other options. It would also eliminate the roulette of trees which seemingly for the pros doesn't do much.

Rory said to Kevin Van Valkenburg of NLU "You're not aiming it in the left bushes, but you know if it goes in the left bushes, it should be ok." I don't think any of us on here would advocate for the best bailout spot on a hole to be bushes. Having played the hole a half dozen times, you're way more likely to make 4 from the bushes than you are from anywhere directly at the green or right or even the greenside bunkers.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2023, 09:48:49 AM »
Whether their is excess sand build up on the green or not, it's a brilliant hole.


I thought when pros complain that means it's an even better hole?


I'm sure if pros never played there, you'd just mow that area with bushes down to fairway and it would be more interesting for the everyday player. Or maybe you do that either way and allow the pro's ball to roll out further out of place.




H.P.S.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2023, 12:46:47 PM »
Is there any reason 10 at Riviera wouldn’t be a better hole if the trees left of the green were removed and the fairway were extended through that area and then well to the left around the short left bunker?
Its ~314 yards from the very back of the tee box on 10 to the members tee on 11. So if you remove those trees and extend the fairway a little you could create a bottleneck of players playing their approach on 10 from the tee path on 11. While it may make the 10th more interesting, I think the encroachment on 11 might be enough for them not to do it.
Highly recommend viewing Tiger's post round 3 presser.  Tiger provided a great analysis on the differences in playing Riviera in general and the 10th hole in particular from when he first started on tour to today. (analysis of 10 starts at 2:40 on video).
Interesting, Tiger only hit Driver off the tee once this year, which resulted in his only birdie on the hole. He did have 3 birdie putts though:
  • Round 2: 8' 10", miss
  • Round 3: 15' 10", make
  • Round 4: 17' 0", miss

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2023, 10:57:31 AM »
My problem with 10 and Rory's right about this, is that the left side bunker is in the spot the players would prefer to play from if laying up. Few enjoy playing their second short of it. It's a bad yardage for most. Because laying up that short isn't an attractive option it forces you to be precise with the drive and have it clear the left bunker in hopes of a) having the ball roll up on the green if fading it or b) having it stop just short allowing for a simple pitch and run shot or putt, depending on the pin position. Otherwise, you're talking about a ball going into the trees or tall Kikuyu grass if left and long, which is a crappy place to hit from.


Were I to redesign the hole I'd remove the left bunker entirely and replace it with a cluster of shaved mounds or hillocks. This would create a great degree of uncertainty and unpredictable outcomes - some of them favorable. Were you to take the mounds on shots would carom in multiple directions. i.e. towards the right front bunker, behind or left of the green in the Kikuyu grass/trees, roll up on or short the green or get caught up on or between the hillocks with a awkward lie/stance for the second. I think part of what makes the 17th at Waste Management an arguably more interesting driveable Par 4 is the unpredictability of what the ball does once it hits the ground and is what's lacking on the 10th at Riviera.


Tempt the player to go for the green by giving them a 10 yard wide strip of fairway from the inside edge of the hillocks to the right edge of the green to run a faded drive up on to it. Miss judge to the right and you're in one of the front bunkers. Miss left and who in the heck knows where you'll be playing your second from. That'll make for great TV viewing and drama.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2023, 11:58:42 AM »
Mike et al:


Just put the bunker back where it was "originally" and let them play the hole without Fazio's messing with it.


Anthony

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2023, 01:57:06 PM »
Mike et al:

Just put the bunker back where it was "originally" and let them play the hole without Fazio's messing with it.

Anthony


I'm not sure where it was originally, but looking at Historical Aerials, the bunker is in the same position now that it was in 1947.  So it could have been different prior to that, but at least we know it wasn't Fazio's doing. ;)


Now, the only foliage that was there beyond it are 3 palms, which have gotten much bigger since then.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2023, 01:58:57 PM by Kalen Braley »

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2023, 03:44:11 PM »
Kalen:


I'm talking about the lone fairway bunker short left in the layup area.  It was originally part of the crescent sweep of the main fairway grouping, just spread out a bit over at the left side of the fairway.  So you could layup where the bunker is now.  Fazio meant to make it harder to lay up so I guess he succeeded.


I think it was better pre Fazio.


Anthony

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2023, 05:55:56 PM »
Anthony;


By "crescent" do you mean a ridge or undulation where that bunker was that forced balls towards the center of the fairway or green and or kicked them left into the the kikuyu grass? Would love to see a photo of the hole pre-Fazio to get a better understanding. I'm sure Sven can pull something out of his sleeve.  ;D


Mike
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2023, 08:37:50 PM »
Kalen:

I'm talking about the lone fairway bunker short left in the layup area.  It was originally part of the crescent sweep of the main fairway grouping, just spread out a bit over at the left side of the fairway.  So you could layup where the bunker is now.  Fazio meant to make it harder to lay up so I guess he succeeded.

I think it was better pre Fazio.

Anthony


The 1952 aerial shows it there too.  (It looks to be there in 47, but the shot is fairly fuzzy.)

Perhaps you can take a look for yourself, but the footprint of all the bunkering looks to be very similar from then till now

https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Obligatory 10 at Riviera
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2023, 12:54:16 AM »
The bunker was added in 1940 or so. Fazio did make it quite a bit larger though.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

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