OT - Reed, Again

[Charlie Goerges]

I’d rather see one cheater go free than a thousand honest golfers punished.

That's a reasonable position to take. In fact, I'd say it's within the current framework of the rules now. The only real punishment that Reed has copped is being labeled a cheater by a subset of the golf community. There's nothing official about it. By the description you're making, the current system is working fine. I think you're right that if we wanted to avoid the Reed situation we'd need to make any tree-ball automatic stroke and distance, but that would punish honest golfers. The stick Reed is taking is just the extra-judicial punishment that exists to keep currently honest golfers, well, honest.

[Rob Marshall]

Rob,

There are a ton of nuanced scenarios that come up in the pro game.  Some are clear cut and others not so much.
In the case of Sergio, he was actually justified...the official got it wrong and they admitted it afterwards.

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/sergio-garcia-ruling-heated-incident-mistake-pga-tour/

Kalen,
That's not my point. I don't see them backing down to the players which I thought was what you were implying. It I got it wrong, sorry.


I was playing in a  tournament a few years ago when Jerry Stahl gave a talk about the big 4 and rulings he had to give them. One was about Jack trying to intimidate him at the masters into giving him a free drop.  Jerry didn't care who he was he wasn't getting a drop.

I have heard of the Big 3, but who is the 4th?  Trevino?

I always thought the 4th was Billy Casper.

I remember Jack, Arnie, and Player and I don't remember the 4th. Of course I'm 60 so it may have just been the 3. Jack wanted relief from what he considered to be either cart or patron damage. Jerry was a long time USGA guy and official. I would be surprised if JohnV doesn't know him.

[Steve Lang]

His actions will follow him long after he retires. At some point, he should take a penalty without complaint. Jane Blalock won 27 LPGA tournaments and is still waiting to enter the World Golf Hall of Fame.

Tommy, I remember that infamous Jane Blalock episode and how Sandra Palmer got dragged around by the LPGA mean girls for her freedom of speach.  JB won lawsuit, but moved on...  I think PR already is in his own world golf HOF, not sure he'll ever move on, but I hope he follows your thought.

[Jeff Schley]

I remember Jack, Arnie, and Player and I don't remember the 4th. Of course I'm 60 so it may have just been the 3.

Or 20 years younger than the current leader of the free world.

[Peter Flory]

Just as an esoteric question, at what point does cheating in a professional golf tournament constitute financial fraud/ theft and rise beyond the jurisdiction of the tournament officials? 

If a player was captured on video dropping a ball down their pants leg during a search (say on someone's cell phone in the gallery) and that video was submitted after the player in question won by a stroke and took home a $1.5MM prize, would they be merely labeled a cheater or would they get arrested? 

It may not be as shocking as robbing a convenience store, but financially, it's probably like robbing 1000 or them. 

[Rob Marshall]

Just as an esoteric question, at what point does cheating in a professional golf tournament constitute financial fraud/ theft and rise beyond the jurisdiction of the tournament officials? 

If a player was captured on video dropping a ball down their pants leg during a search (say on someone's cell phone in the gallery) and that video was submitted after the player in question won by a stroke and took home a $1.5MM prize, would they be merely labeled a cheater or would they get arrested? 

It may not be as shocking as robbing a convenience store, but financially, it's probably like robbing 1000 or them.

Two guys were arrested this year for cheating in a fishing tournament. I think they won $20,000 with fish the loaded with weights...


https://www.npr.org/2022/10/14/1129018076/fishing-tournament-cheating-felony-charges-runyan-cominsky-lake-erie-walleye#:~:text=Fishermen%20face%20felony%20charges%20over%20a%20cheating%20scandal%20at%20an%20Ohio%20tournament&text=Hoping%20to%20win%20a%20pro,on%20three%20felony%20charges%20each

[Thomas Dai]

Just as an esoteric question, at what point does cheating in a professional golf tournament constitute financial fraud/ theft and rise beyond the jurisdiction of the tournament officials? 
If a player was captured on video dropping a ball down their pants leg during a search (say on someone's cell phone in the gallery) and that video was submitted after the player in question won by a stroke and took home a $1.5MM prize, would they be merely labeled a cheater or would they get arrested? 
It may not be as shocking as robbing a convenience store, but financially, it's probably like robbing 1000 or them.

Good question Peter. I’ve been pondering matters along the same lines the same myself.
Big scenario. Someone economical with the rules wins some cash, others miss out from even playing. Which country/state does the case get heard in? I can envisage a few folks rubbing their hands at a potential financial slice of some case or other. Appeals too. I can also imagine a few others hiding their heads in the sand in the hope nothing every arises.
Interesting times especially with social media as it is and a society where the desire to involve ambulance chasers seems to have increased. Interesting precedents too.
Atb

[Peter Flory]

Just as an esoteric question, at what point does cheating in a professional golf tournament constitute financial fraud/ theft and rise beyond the jurisdiction of the tournament officials? 

If a player was captured on video dropping a ball down their pants leg during a search (say on someone's cell phone in the gallery) and that video was submitted after the player in question won by a stroke and took home a $1.5MM prize, would they be merely labeled a cheater or would they get arrested? 

It may not be as shocking as robbing a convenience store, but financially, it's probably like robbing 1000 or them.

Two guys were arrested this year for cheating in a fishing tournament. I think they won $20,000 with fish the loaded with weights...


https://www.npr.org/2022/10/14/1129018076/fishing-tournament-cheating-felony-charges-runyan-cominsky-lake-erie-walleye#:~:text=Fishermen%20face%20felony%20charges%20over%20a%20cheating%20scandal%20at%20an%20Ohio%20tournament&text=Hoping%20to%20win%20a%20pro,on%20three%20felony%20charges%20each

That's a great comparison.  Those guys were very lucky that they didn't get their asses kicked by the angry mob. 

[Sean_A]

Of course a ball was recovered. Didn’t fit the narrative.

Reed has zero obligation to prove he didn’t misrepresent his opinion.

Well that's sort of the point John, Reed shouldn't have had an opinion in this case, he should have been making a statement of fact...

Which of course was extremely difficult to do in this situation. Again, why would an official accept PR's identification if it wasn't verifiable? Is the golfer the sole person who can ultimately decide on this matter?

Ciao

Well this is what I alluded to earlier.

The official stands his ground and doesn't accept the identification as valid, Reed throws a fit and takes the walk of shame, texts his lawyer to add one more name to the lawsuit, and then Pat drags him thru the mud in ensuing pressers and interviews. The pro game has neutered and declawed officiating, which needed to change a long time ago...

I am still unclear as to how the ruling was made. It seems like the official more or less has to take the word of the player in this instance. To some degree it makes sense because an official wouldn't be able to verify the identity of a ball. I assume the questions the official asks are more about making the player clear in his mind as to ball identification.

Ciao

[JohnVDB]

Of course a ball was recovered. Didn’t fit the narrative.

Reed has zero obligation to prove he didn’t misrepresent his opinion.

Well that's sort of the point John, Reed shouldn't have had an opinion in this case, he should have been making a statement of fact...

Which of course was extremely difficult to do in this situation. Again, why would an official accept PR's identification if it wasn't verifiable? Is the golfer the sole person who can ultimately decide on this matter?

Ciao

Well this is what I alluded to earlier.

The official stands his ground and doesn't accept the identification as valid, Reed throws a fit and takes the walk of shame, texts his lawyer to add one more name to the lawsuit, and then Pat drags him thru the mud in ensuing pressers and interviews. The pro game has neutered and declawed officiating, which needed to change a long time ago...

I am still unclear as to how the ruling was made. It seems like the official more or less has to take the word of the player in this instance. To some degree it makes sense because an official wouldn't be able to verify the identity of a ball. I assume the questions the official asks are more about making the player clear in his mind as to ball identification.

Ciao

Exactly.  The player is the only person who can identify his ball and the official is going to talk with him to ensure the he believes it is his ball.  Golf is a game of honour and the Rules assume honesty.  We don’t act differently based on who the player is, regardless of his reputation.

[Thomas Dai]

.. The player is the only person who can identify his ball and the official is going to talk with him to ensure the he believes it is his ball.  Golf is a game of honour and the Rules assume honesty.  We don’t act differently based on who the player is, regardless of his reputation.

Out of curiosity what is the role of the competitors playing partner in such a situation?
Isn’t the playing partner (marker) supposed to attest the correctness of the competitors card by counter-signing the card at the end of the round?
Atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Out of curiosity what is the role of the competitors playing partner in such a situation?
Isn’t the playing partner (marker) supposed to attest the correctness of the competitors card by counter-signing the card at the end of the round?

Yes, but also… Reed made the score he made on the hole, so what is the marker going to do after the fact? If he doesn't think that's Reed's ball that Reed is identifying, it's important that he speak up then.