News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


T_MacWood

Devereux Emmet
« on: December 03, 2003, 08:30:50 AM »
In attempt to rehabilitate his reputation what can those who have enjoyed his courses (I've only played Belmont in Ohio and the odd old course in Wheeling) tell us about Emmet and some of his better designs.

chipoat mentioned St.Georges as a hidden gem. Robert Hunter spoke highly of him and his green complex designs (I believe). He Macdonald appear to be close friends...I believe he helped in measuring some of the classic holes overseas. Glen Head (Woman's National) looks very interesting. I've heard the course near the Baseball Hall is good. He also appears to have lost more than his fair share of courses...any particular reason other than urban sprawl.

TEPaul

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2003, 09:48:03 AM »
Do you see that? "Dev" Emmet designed the course FKA "The Women's National"!! That just totally figures! That more than proves that that little fairy person "Dev" Emmet was the world's greatest architectural producer of feminine or even homosexual architecture! The course was obviously only intended for weak little women and gay men! I doubt even Marion Hollins, the strapping lesbian US Amateur Champion who could hit the ball a country mile was in the slightest bit challenged by her own golf course--Glen Head G.C. or formerly known as the "Women's National G & CC" (the G & CC part of that club stood for "golf and Cat Club" but very few remember that now!).

It wouldn't surprise me if Marion, the brains and inspiration behind "Long Island Women's National G & CC" was so disappointed in the lack of challenge of the effeminate architecture of that course that that was the very reason she hied on out to California and got Seth Raynor (who died on her) and then Alister MacKenzie (another real man) to build CPC on which she was responsible for the creation of the famous 16th hole with its massive carry, which, by the way, she proved to everyone was possible by busting a shot from the long tee positon to the green's present postion.

Can you imagine if Marion had had the poor sense to take "Dev" to the coast with her to design that course and that world class hole?

There's little question in my mind that little "Devie" Emmet would've created an unacceptable 350 yard sashaying walk from #15 green to a championship tee on #16 far to the left thereby creating a tip tee #16 hole of 92 yards!

I think I've made my point about Emmet and his style of architecture and henceforth will have no more to say about this lilly white little bird/man or any of his golf courses or Pat Mucci will start accusing me again of being BIASED and foisting a DOUBLE STANDARD on you all, and I certainly don't want to do that.  

blasbe1

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2003, 10:10:42 AM »
TEPaul:

Either your attempt at satire elluded me entirely or you have some serious issues to deal with . . . the least of which seem to be about GCA.

Good luck,

JKB


TEPaul

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2003, 10:26:04 AM »
blas;

Thanks for wishing me luck--I do appreciate that---and you couldn't be more correct that humor certainly is ellusive on here--there're many on here it eludes. As you say, obviously you're another one of them but don't let that trouble you--you're in extremely good company! You're entirely correct too that the things I said aren't enough about golf course architecture and there certainly should be no room at all in golf course architecture and the serious analysis of it for such a thing as humor.  

:)

blasbe1

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2003, 10:41:52 AM »
TEPaul:

The PC police I’m not . . . but I do promise to send you the psycho analysis bill that I run up trying to get in touch with the feminine side of my home course.  

GeoffreyC

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2003, 10:45:30 AM »
Tom

I've played several Emmet courses in the MET area and enjoy his style very much.

My town course formerly Vernon Hills CC and renamed Lake Isle was originally done by Emmet but a few years ago Stephen Kay took every last interesting feature out of it to allow the seniors to get around in their carts in under five hours.

Wee Burn is perhaps the best preserved of his work that I am aware of and it is a fine course.

My observations on his style are that he can pack an awful lot of variety and interest into a course that measures typically 6200-6400 yards at most.  He does this by:
1- seemingly always having at least a couple of very long pars 4's of 440-460 yards.  These were certainly half pars in those days and very difficult to reach in regulation figures.

2- same for seemingly always having a very long par 3 of 220 yards or more.  They certainly required a wood or even driver to reach.

3- interesting bunkering patterns that included cross bunkers extending into landing areas but not across the entire fairway.

4- mounding immediately adjacent to greens was very common.

5- greens with a muffin or mound within it to segment to green into different pin locations was common on the Emmet courses I've played.

6- I'm not sure this wass so common but at my town course (before changes) the deepest most intimidating greenside bunkers had to be carried only if you chose not to shape a tee shot around and to the inside of a dogleg. The easier tee shot to the outside created a MUCH more intimidating approach and on a poor angle relative to the green contour as well as the bunker.

TEPaul

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2003, 11:05:15 AM »
".....but I do promise to send you the psycho analysis bill that I run up trying to get in touch with the feminine side of my home course."

blas:

Excellent, send the bill along. Good for you trying to get in touch with the feminine side of your course---and a mildly entertaining thought as well. I certainly do hope, however, that your golf course is not a Devereaux Emmet golf course or you must be either very insensitive or almost completely blind to the feminine side of things! Would you say you tend to be one of those "real" men like Walter Travis?

In any case, and in all seriousness now, enough of all this nonsense and again I do apologize about the things I've said about Devereaux Emmet in the last day or so--I really don't mean a single word of it. I'm from Long Island, New York originally, and I do remember some of Emmet's courses. He was a very fine architect and produced many fascinating courses around the NYC area.

That's the tragedy of Emmet and his architecture--he was a New Yorker, he was also very early in American golf architecture and he built too many courses too close to NYC that were not bound to survive due to the city's expansion and consequently he probably has as many NLEs as any other well respected architect.

TEPaul

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2003, 11:16:54 AM »
Tom MacW:

I'm finding something very curious here with this thread of yours on Devereaux Emmet. You say you've only played or perhaps seen only a few Devereaux Emmet courses and possibly only one in Ohio and one in W Va.  

Also, would you say that GCGC could be considered in some ways a Devereaux Emmet golf course--or would you consider it to be a Walter Travis golf course?

The reason I ask is you didn't include GCGC in the few Emmet courses you've played or seen. Is it possible that the world's greatest expert on GCGC's architecture has never played or even seen GCGC? Have you ever even been to Garden City, Long Island, New York?

frank_D

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2003, 11:20:51 AM »
My town course formerly Vernon Hills CC and renamed Lake Isle

is this course on post road (rte 22) in the interlaken section of eastchester NY
« Last Edit: December 03, 2003, 11:23:00 AM by frank_D »

TEPaul

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2003, 11:27:22 AM »
Geoffrey Childs said in one of his points in his excellent analysis of Devereaux Emmet architecture;

"4- mounding immediately adjacent to greens was very common."

Geoffrey:

My God--that might be extremely significant if provable. Did you see anything about that Emmet mounding immediately adjacent to greens that in any way resembled a "vegetable bed" or even any kind of "vegetable preparation impliment?"

If you did I think GCGC will need to know this important information very quickly. If this is true it sounds to me as if Devereaux Emmet may have been trying to say in his architecture that he was sorry to his old but estranged friend Walter J. Travis either during their estrangment or even after Walter's passing!!


GeoffreyC

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2003, 11:46:39 AM »
Frank D - yes that's the one.

Tom Paul-  The common mounding that I notice is really more of an irregular wave of humps and bumps and mounds that literally surround a green on three sides leaving the front open.  The greens on the Emmet courses that I am familiar with tend to be built up and frequently feature severe dropoffs behind them.

I never once thought of the mounding as a vegetable impliment. Perhaps I need to hit the bottle a bit more before playing.

blasbe1

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2003, 12:42:03 PM »
TEPaul:

It is an Emmet design but time has changed most of his work, the greens and layout, however, are still his.

And here I was thinking about the masculine and feminine elements in some of my favorite courses and I thought that part of your posts was insightful.  No comment on the  homophobia sarcasm.



Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2003, 01:10:18 PM »
Dev Emmet's courses typically were in the 6200 to 6400 yard range and only started to become longer when Alfred Tull was made a full parter.  The best example being the lost course at Huntington Crescent Club.  

As for a discussing his design style, he typically delt with very tight sites; thus, this explains he shorter courses.  Contrary to what C&W and golfcourse.com write-up says, he often had raised greens with medium to large mounding around them.  Other than his greensites and mounding behind fairway bunkers, he typically moved very little earth.  He loved to have quirky holes and greens in odd locations.  For example, if one plays the present Pelham course, when one gets to the present 7th and 8th holes, Emmet's original 6th hole played from a tee box up and left of the present 7th and the idea was to hit your drive just short of the present 7th green.  Then have your caddy go to the top of the hill (tee box present 8th hole) and show you the line for your COMPLETLY blind shot up over the large hill to the original 6th green right of the present 8th.  This is shown in Wexler's book with the interupted fairway being the large hill.  Also, an FYI, the present first hole there is a Tull hole and not Emmet as the present DR sits on the old Emmet 1st.  He liked to have one par 3 of gigantic proportions 220 to 240 and it often was a modified Biarritz type hole.  He liked to have one short hole 110 to 135 yards, he like to have one VERY long par 5 550 to 585, he like to have several driveable or driveand pitch par 4 that played to well bunkered greens, and he liked to have several long par 4's. He was not afraid to incorportate blindness in to many of his designs.

He liked to build greens into the side of hills and have them fall off on two or more sides (1st at Webster Dudly GC, 1st at Immergrun GC, The Powelton Club #10).  The Powelton Club's 10th hole may be one of my all time favortie Emmet holes.  The hole is a mid length par 4 390 yards that plays slightly uphill to a semi-bling green off the tee.  There use to be a long cross bunker that completly cut off the fairway that has been grassed over.  The second shot plays to a green at the hightest point on the course that falls off by about 15 to 20 feet behind and 10 to fifteen feet on the left and the right.  The green has two tiers and is triangular with the apex of the triagle in being at the back and the highest tier.  On tournament days the back pin location on this raised small iece of green has dire consequences if you miss long!!  I guess the members do not like the green and have been trying to change it, luckily, the present Superintendent knos a thing or two about golf architecture and will not let them touch it!!

As for reasons for losing so many courses (around 40 to 45) he lost at least 7 courses in NYC (Hillcrest, Laurelton North and South, Pomonok, Old CC, Queensboro, and Queens Valley), he lost 4 of the 5 courses at Slisbury Golf links, etc.  I would say most of his courses were lost as a direct result of the depression, urban expansion or were built over (Fenimore, Briar Hall, Hartford, half of Congressional, etc.)

Sadly, several of Emmet's courses have recently been built over Bedford GCC, Briar Hall, Wheatly Hills (all bunkers redone Hurdazn & Fry and look nothing like Emmet, Ridgewood in CT redone by master restorer Rulewich, Mahopac, etc).

As for his most preserved designs Wee Burn is up there; however, Tom Fazio has been retained to redo all fairway bunkers!!   :(  And, the present 2nd green is not Emmet and the original 8th and 9ths holes were changes sometime before the Women's Amateur held their in 1939; however, they appear to have been redone by Emmet.  Mohawk GC in Schenectady is very good Emmet design that was not butchered too much by Kay, The Edison Club is very true to Emmet, Schuyler Meadows, Immergrun, Webster Dudley, Leatherstocking GC are all still very true to their original Emmet design.

However, Leatherstocking has altered at least four holes, the 3rd use to be a 245 yard par 3 that played over a large diagonal sand bunker that has been left to grow over, the 5th use to be a Road hole, and it appears the 17th and 18th were redone as the 18th use to be a par 3 playing to an island green.

Courses close to NYC that have a lot of Emmet left Brentwood CC has some amazing Emmet greens (upkeep is not that great), South Shore GC (Staten Island old Mayflower CC) has some very good Emmet greeens with a routing that is almost unchanged except for some tees being shorted due to higher volumes of play, Bethpage Green has a lot of Emmet, St. George's appears to be all Emmet except fot he 11th green, The Powelton Club has around 12 holes that are Emmet (route 9 and I-84 have hurt the club), Rockaway River in NJ is about 70 to 75% Emmet.

As for Glen Head CC, there have been a lot of changes to the course over the years and are almost too many to talk about.  Even the layout in George Bahto's book leaves a lot of questions.  However, if you compare the original Women's National scorecard (there is one copy in the clubhouse at GCGC) and Glenhead has a couple, a lot of the holes in routing and green location still appear to be Emmet.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2003, 01:14:04 PM »
As for Garden City, I would consider the layout to be Emmet; however almost all fairway bunkering and greensites and bunkering to be Travis.  The greensites at GCGC resemble very little of his other work.  Like others have said previously, he like to have his greens surrounded by mounding and there is very little of that at GCGC.  The fairway bunkering does not bear resemblence to his other courses and the DEEP greenside bunkering is something I have not seen in his other designs.

If you ever get a chance, the club has 5 or 6 wonderful pictures of Emmet.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2003, 01:28:12 PM »
One other Emmet course of note that I forgot to mentioin was McGregor Links CC.  From what I have heard others say the course was amazing in the 60's & 70's that includes Bill Kittleman and the head professinoal at The Edison Club.  Sadly, the course is putting up housing at a rapid pace and much of the fairway bunkering that is shown in the layout in George Thomas' book 'Golf Architecture in America' is gone.  The 6th hole there even without the fairway bunkering is still one of hell of a par 4 from the terrain and how it relates to shot palcement and attaching the green.  The 7th hole still have some great Emmet fairway bunkering.  The second holes is a 240 yard par 3 with false front fairway bunkering.  The 17th is a par 4 playing to a blind green placed at the base of a hill.

GeoffreyC

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2003, 01:34:42 PM »
Chris

That's a very good and detailed summary.  I am also familiar with Pelham CC as it was the first private course I ever played and I've subsequently played it many times. It's quirk and charm is still there to some degree.

Are you familiar with Leewood CC, another Dev Emmet course in Eastchester? Stephen Kay has worked on it pretty extensively since I last played there.

At home I have a placemat from the dining room of Wee Burn routing with the routing and changes made from the original course. I'm sorry to hear that Mr. Fazio has been retained to work on the course.  Is the work intended as restoration or "improvement"? The Wee Burn member that I know, John Beinecke, is the same fellow who was in charge of the fund raising and "restoration" at Yale so I certainly hope he has nothing to do with the scope and direction of this work.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2003, 01:57:35 PM »
Geoffrey,

I have not had the opportunity to play Leewood.  However, after hearing from not only you, but others that Kay has worked on the course extensively, I became less interested.  You should see the work Kay has done at The Seawane Harbor Club  :(  Once the last 5 or 6 holes are done, there will be almost no Emmet left.  Let no one tell you this is a restoration project as the final product will be almost all Kay.  I think it is their 15th hole (Seawane) that has around 10 to 12 lost bunkers left of the green that slopes severely away from the bunkers that are to be completely rebuilt by Kay.  :(

As for Wee Burn CC, I have a plan from the course that is before the 2nd, 8th, and 9th holes were altered and I have a copy of the Program from the Women's Amateur in 1939 that has the present layout.  One hole of note that is no longer, there appears to have originally been a Principle's None bunker complex short center on the 1st hole that is now gone.  Heaven forbid one has buners in the middle of the fariway. :o

The irony of the Wee Burn RENOVATION is that Ron Forse did the clubs short chipping and practice facilty.  But, in the words of the club's superintendent, 'the members wanted a name in doing the renovation. '  I was also told that he will not be touching the greens and greenside bunkers.  I can only hope this is true because with the exception of the 2nd green, they are pure Emmet with one island green and one peninsula green.  No one that I have talked to at Wee Burn used the term restoration and rightfully so.

Some more irony with respect to Kay, if you read his writeup in C&W it says something along the lines of he developed  respect for the classic golden age courses by doing a lot of work on Emmet and other architects of the area.  I guess that work is severely altering for the worse a lot of classic Emmet courses.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2003, 02:12:44 PM »
Geoffrey,

As for Pelham, it still has a lot of quirk left.  However, Tull remodeled out of existence a lot of quirky Emmet like the 6th hole.  And despite what DWexler's book  says, the first is not Emmet as the greensite will tell you and only, the 3rd, 9th, 10th, 14th, and 15th holes are still Emmet (note hole numbers are their present ones and not the pre 1954 I-95 hole numbers).

I have seen an old picture taken during the 1923 PGA championship looking down the 3rd fairway from the American Golfer and one of the old altered greens on the right side is in the picture, the bunkering around the hole is vintage Emmet and makes me wish I could play the old course if not for that hole and the old 6th alone.  Only Dev Emmet would design a hole with that type of blind approach to the green!!! ;D

GeoffreyC

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2003, 02:45:39 PM »
Chris

With regard to Pelham CC, I recall that Dan Wexler's book did mention that the first hole was altered due to the driving range just to the left of the current short par 5.  That green is quite different in style from the originals.

The blind drive on the 9th hole over the imposing rock face was quite a feat even in the late 60's when I first played it.  the dropoff to the left demanded a solid and straight shot. Those are the kinds of thrilling challenges many old courses present due to the topography of the land available. 10 is one of those shot par 3's you mentioned and it plays much like a "short" hole of MacDonald/Raynor being surrounded by bunkers (although the bunkering must have been changed somewhat over the years).

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2003, 03:02:07 PM »
Geoffrey,

I just gave Lost Links a looksie and DW has the 1st hole as being one of the unaltered holes, he may mention it somewhere else; but, he does not say anything about it in the Pelham writeup for lost holes.

The 10th per DW books appears to have been a green surrounded by sand and if my memory is correct, now the holes bunkers are segmented into 4 to 6 bunkers.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2003, 03:24:09 PM »


You guys need to get out to Huntington Country Club which has just gone through a well-done in-house restoration.  Has many of the design elemnts that Dr. Childs mentioned.  

Stephen Kay seems to be involved in changing a lot of courses in the Met area including one of my favorites Rockaway Hunting. >:(

blasbe1

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2003, 03:37:16 PM »
Chris:

Seawane is my home course and you are correct to note that very little Emmet remains from tee to green.  Unfortunately, it was prior memberships that had most to do with that, not the current one and not the current project.  Time brought thousands of trees, ponds filled in, ponds expanded, etc. and short of some cross bunkering you had little original Emmet left when the current project began.  

As far as the dozen or so bunkers left of 15 that appeared grassed over, I'm told they were not Emmet's and were added as grass bunkers not bunkers that were grassed over (they were also rarely in play).  I will consult the early aerials that we have and report back.  BTW, that feature was one of the first that struck me as something that should have been revived.  Either way they are gone and we've added several small pot bunkers in their place and shaved down the left side and back slopes to the green so the pot bunkers will now be in play more often.

When I first played Seawane before the current project broke ground it played like a course out of character.  It now plays a lot better and is much more of a links course.  

The putting surfaces have not been touched and as far as I know they are all still Emmet, neither has the routing which is still Emmet (with the exception of the tee on 11 which was moved left a bit).  

While I would have preferred a true restoration based upon old aerials and other photos, etc., the current project is a major improvement on what we had 3 years ago (IMO).
 

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2003, 03:41:19 PM »
I have been trying to get out there and see it (to no avail :(  )besides the fact that they did a restoratioin to Emmet's original design, but also because they have one of the few Emmet Road holes that I know of.  I know he did one at Leatherstocking that was renovated out of existence, he did a modified version at his original 9 hole course at Cape Cod CC, that Tull though highly enough to keep.  If you want to see a green that rivals the 10th at The Powelton Club you have to check out the present 14th hole's green it is perched on top of a hill that falls off 15 to 20 feet on three sides and is very very small.  Tull added a fairway bunker short and right and again thought highly enough to keep the hole.

blasbe1

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2003, 03:43:59 PM »
I'm curious if anyone knows how much of St. George's is still Emmit?  

I played it only once years ago but from what I recall I'd say quite a lot.  It's a great tract that keeps a low profile . . . exciting to play.  

TEPaul

Re:Devereux Emmet
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2003, 03:51:20 PM »
One of the apparently very fine Devereux Emmet Long Island courses was the old Meadow Brook Hunt Club in Westbury Long Island. I asked my 88 year old mother about it the other day and she said it was one of the prettiest courses she ever saw. This club was the home of the world famous Meadow Brook polo team and golf obviously took second place at this club. But they say once Piping Rock built a great golf course around that club's polo and equestrian interests that the Meadow Brook equestrian interests felt they had to have a golf course too. Emmet built it in 1914 and the course and club went down as the Meadow Brook Parkway took its land and the club moved over to Jericho and the new course Dick Wilson did for them there.

It's said that Emmet did about 75 golf courses in his career and today just about half of them are NLEs!

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back