2 Great Architects' Plans For Same Property

[wsmorrison]

In the course of researching our book on William Flynn, Tom and I came across a set of final plans Flynn proposed (after several iterations) for the Country Club of York in York, PA in 1925.  There apparently was a competition for the project which was eventually awarded to Donald Ross.  

We have a topo of the original property, the Flynn plans, and the Ross plans along with aerial photos that show how the course was built.  It is my experience that rarely do you have contemporary master architect plans for the exact same piece of property.

An eminent architect that has worked for the club, the former head pro (a golf architecture enthusuiast), assorted club members, Tom Paul, and I are going to analyze and compare the two plans by these great architects.  This has the makings of a very interesting academic exercise that should reveal quite a lot about routing and design differences between Flynn and Ross.

What sort of questions would you like answered?  We can try to incorporate your interests in our study.  Hope you don't mind being a cheap (free) focus group.

[RJ_Daley]

That sounds very exciting!  What are the dimensions of the plans?  How many layers of plans, i.e. cut&fills, grading, separate greens construction?  Is there a way you can position a camera to take an overhead that will yield good detail.  You can't just leave us hanging on this one, Wayne?

I think my most curious question would be to see if it is evident that DR used the natural ridges and slopes more angular than Flynn to yield fairway position strategy as DR is often identified as being most skilled at doing. Did one architect put more emphasis on designing hazards off the tee and the other more resistance at the green?  

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
Do both plans start at the same point (same clubhouse location)? Do they both have driving ranges?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

It sounds like a fabulous opportunity to see how two masters viewed the same piece of property and incorporated their design principles.

Perhaps you can bring the schematics with you to the February 28th gathering.  

It would seem to make for an interesting study and discussion.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks for the comments gentlemen, this is what I was hoping for with this post.  Although the materials are all available, we haven't copied them and gathered everything together in one spot so we really haven't begun the process yet.  But we have done a pretty good job of researching the materials available to us.  I have the Flynn plan but don't have a copy of the Ross plan as yet, I do have a modern (1994) aerial and our favorite aerial sleuth got me a copy of the 1938 aerial from the NARA.  I'm sure by the Baltusrol gathering we'll have all the plans and photos and we will be well into the analysis so we should have something to share.  The architect that is helping me with this will be there (Ron Forse) as will Tom Paul.  So we should be able to make a short presentation if people want or chat on the sidelines during a break in the action.

If people want to look up the site on Mapquest, the address for the CC of York is:

1400 Country Club Road
York, PA  17403

The site has about 200 feet of elevation change with a meandering stream in the SE part of the course and a spring on the NE end.  Flynn indicated a driving range on his plan but there was none on the Ross plan as far as I know.  The clubhouse was indicated in the same spot on both plans.  I'm not yet sure if this was a coincidence, necessary, or a demand by the club.  This club is situated on some beautiful property with nice estate homes on the eastern edge of the property and a very sharp drop off on the western side.  This is where Scott Nye, the former head pro put in a driving range maybe 10 years or so ago.  I think Flynn intended to do a bit more engineering involving the moving of the stream around the 12th and 13th greens on his plan.  Typical of Flynn, he was routing all over the place, up and down slopes, along slopes which canted the fairways in different directions, from high tees to high greens, there's a little bit of everything going on there.

Please keep up with the questions, I just won't have many answers for a while but they will help us plan the analysis and execute it thoroughly.

RJ,

If I knew how to post the plans, I would although I'm not certain we can.  The Flynn map is quite large, about 4 feet by 6 feet so the file is quite big, even as a jpeg.  That's the limit of my techincal skill I'm afraid and it ain't much, although significantly more than Mr. Paul .  Sorry to leave you hanging on this.  I think our book will really be comprehensive and an analysis like this will really make an interesting story.  

My guess as of now is that the two men didn't have too many limitations (I'll have to find out about the clubhouse issue).  The property lines seems to be established as they are identical in the Flynn plan and what was built according to Ross' plan.  The golf course is not really constrained by any streets or quarries or the like.  I think this was very rural for quite a time, after all there isn't urban sprawl out there even today.

Tom MacWood and Mike Sweeney

I understand the point that you are trying to make.  That is to somehow factor in the site limitations that impinged both plans when considering the differences in the creative efforts by both master architects.  Good point and one we will certainly address.  Thanks!

[George Pazin]

Any chance you can go one step further and provide a topo of the area without plans?

[wsmorrison]

George,

Do you mean that you want me to post on here the topo of the site prior to CC York?  IIf this is what you mean, I'll have to talk to someone that can advise me how to do so.  I'll need to scan the map and digitize it or take a digital photo but they never seem to come out very well.  I'll try.  Thanks for your interest!

Regards,
Wayne

[Mike Nuzzo]

Wayne & Tom,
What a great find.
Were there any elements from the Flynn design/routing incorporated into the final as built course?
Analyzing both routings sounds like a great presentation at the Winter Gathering.
Cheers

[TEPaul]

Trying to compare a proposed Flynn routing and design to an existing Ross course over the exact same site could be a very interesting excerise but as Wayne said--that's all it probably will be--an academic exercise.  

I'm not sure how much time Flynn put into his proposed design for the CC of York but like all his plans we have it looks well thought out.

I've always felt that if one were to pick two architects from those days who routed differently it would probably be Ross and Flynn. I think Ross mostly had a very predictable routing modus operandi that seems to show up on most all his courses I know. Basically it seemed to be maxing a site or design with as many high tee/valley/high green holes as possible and then once the site was maxed that way to connect those holes however they hooked together with the rest best.

Flynn seemed to sort of flow his routings all over the topography and to also do routings that had more little sets of sequences that could be used in various ways. Flynn also seemed more inclined to go uphill off tees than Ross. Probably more inclined to the real dramatic sometimes than Ross. But maybe I'm just imagining it.

I guess one could say that Flynn probably flashed the bunkers and sand more than Ross mostly did. And I wouldn't say their greens had many similarities certainly not early Ross greens.

But it'll be an interesting excercise to see what the differences or similarities are of their two separate routings and designs at the CC or York.

I have played a couple of state tournaments over the years at the CC of York and I remember it pretty well. The course has some interesting topography on parts of it and those sections will be the most interesting to see if there're real differences or similarities between Ross and Flynn.

[mark chalfant]

   Wayne, what a neat discovery  !


Two things:

1.  both architects tended  to design wonderful short par fours-
compare  and contrast these at York.

2.  Im also curious about their  ensemble  of one shotters-

what are the strengths, variety, or memorability of  Flynns
group of par threes  versus  Donald  Ross'  group.

ie  to fill in routing gaps,   or  character- filled distinct holes


Mark