News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« on: January 04, 2023, 02:04:51 PM »
Drainage inlets on a golf course; I despise them. They create dodgy stances in otherwise playable areas, create confusion regarding appropriate relief, derail very enticing ground game options that often seemingly counter and conflict with a major natural or designed feature of a hole
So my question is how does the over or incorrect adoption of this engineering feature affect your perception of a golf course? I now play a very well regarded course by a hall of fame designer which incorporates numerous rolls swales and dips as an introduced feature but where one can encounter 10 to 20 inlets along a hole. The popular collection area feature so ubiquitous to modern greens overwhelmingly feeds down to ---- an inlet. The third hole at Victoria National is a striking par 5 which, if your second is positioned properly looking down a chute to a green backed and sided by water cries for a 6o yard bump and run through 6 inlets!

I grant that some sites do call for this solution in order to take advantage of more impactful characteristics of that land. However I believe that misuse of this feature either indicates sloppy design or disregard for the purer form of play many of us chase.
So I would be interested to hear other opinions , justifications, and examples of the above. Who knows maybe a discussion will help steer design a bit away from this "easy" solution.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2023, 02:17:19 PM »
I played a modern course in Mesquite, NV a couple years ago. Big, defined drain basins with big, cast iron drain grates. In the desert.


Hated it just for the wasted money. I’m sure the client was told they had to have it, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the design fee also included 10% of the construction budget.


And, what Ward said about playabilty.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2023, 09:10:54 PM »
One of the main reasons I dislike most modern designs. So many older courses don’t have these and seem to drain fine. Not sure where things went wrong.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2023, 04:34:43 AM »

One of the main reasons I dislike most modern designs. So many older courses don’t have these and seem to drain fine. Not sure where things went wrong.

Might be that the older courses were built on better parcels of land from drainage standpoint...and such parcels have been unavailable in more recent years.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2023, 05:14:19 PM »
One of the main reasons I dislike most modern designs. So many older courses don’t have these and seem to drain fine. Not sure where things went wrong.


Jim, not picking on you, but using that last comment to say what I like to say about drainage.  In fact, when you consider all the design needs on any given project, I think most projects went "right" in providing more drainage, but as is typical of golfers (and others) there is a tendency to look at what may have gone "wrong." (When I ask golfers what their favorite hole is, they typically start their response with, "Hole X is the one I really don't like......."




Most old courses didn't drain "fine" and have added drainage every year since opening.  As one super says, you don't add drainage every year......just the years you work there.  I suspect newer courses designed by newer gca's who try to not have any pipe drainage will experience the same thing over the years.  Mother Nature is Mother Nature, and it hasn't changed towards less rain and may be changing to more.  Neither has the drainage characteristics of suburban and urban watersheds. 


Much of the increased drainage is due to the low cost of HDPE pipe (compared to old concrete or Vitrified Clay Pipe, or even corrugated metal).  Some is due to the combo of residential areas and golf courses.  Only a bit is a "design choice to alter drainage patterns for mounding, etc.  Also, I recall a conversation with Geoff Cornish.  When told I spent over $100K on drainage (1980's era) he said, yes that is what it takes, but his generation was willing to wait to keep upfront costs low.  Baby Boomers are not as patient.  Owners needed the course to be "great" from day one, so basically, many of us decided to put all the drainage in upfront, rather than piecemeal it over time (installing it coincidentally with construction is always more efficient anyway)


As a "yute" interested in architecture, I recall reading the original NGF "Planning and Building the Golf Course" (which I actually updated in 1981....a collector's item I am sure) there was a comment about a sign of bad design being long, soggy drain swales, with a note that modern design was doing more to eliminate those.  I obviously took it to heart.


While I suppose we all look to minimize catch basins, at least in high play areas, they are necessary in many, site specific cases.  Yes, after the introduction of low cost HDPE pipe about 1990, some designers saw the potential to expand earthmoving, rather than respect the micro and in some cases, big picture flow patterns and it allowed a new style of design that had been previously not possible.  Overall, the technology of various types has affected design and it is a good thing when design professionals look to do something different than was done before.  In every other design field, copycatting earlier styles of design is considered a poor period, whereas somehow in golf design, a certain subset of critics think nothing past the 1920's could ever be as good.


But, I digress.


Here are some drainage facts that are undisputable (for most sites)


Long swales are still bad.  It is best to cut them off, and treat the fw like an engineer would treat a road, i.e., elevate it and pipe any drainage that would cross it under.  This isn't so bad, as it leaves most drain structures in the rough rather than fw.


The best way to handle surface drainage problems is with a surface drainage system (i.e, adequate slopes to catch basins) French drains are hidden, but eventually, need maintenance and are far less efficient at moving water away, due to the low perc rate of most soils.  They are best reserved for subsurface springs.


Joe mentions wasting money on desert drainage.  Well, I did a desert course in the 90's sometime and spent over $600K on drainage, knowing the housing surrounding it would be continuously dumping nuisance drainage down to our fw.  Those drains were mostly outside the path and/or fairways, but otherwise, with the holes situated mostly in small valleys to increase perimeter views, it would have been constantly damp, and have poor turf.


More drainage certainly helps with grow in.  Soils will erode when water channels at 3-5 ft second, depending on character.  Water on a gentle slope or in a gentle swale valley will attain that velocity within a maximum of 300 linear feet.  Thus, having drains structures at intervals of less than 300 is often required to eliminate those long, squishy swales.  Granted, newer soil netting to reduce erosion helps that somewhat.


Golfers always want any CB to be as small as possible, however, that catch basin is often the limiting factor to system capacity.  In general, if your drain pipe sizing formula calls for a 12" pipe, you probably need a 12" or larger catch basin.

There is an old bridge design theory that the most economical designs will have about equal cost for piers and spans.  I found the same to be true in golf course drainage.  Yes, I could fill a fw one foot on one side, and 3-5 feet on the other to surface drain it. (often need drains on the high side) or I could raise it an average of say, one foot, and add basins.  Typically the mix of basins and grading was the least cost to get a fairway to drain.


As to the green surrounds, yes, I hate a lot of catch basins to recreate that Donald Ross subtle chipping areas in non-sandy soils.  It might be possible that the Ross style makes less sense in clay soils, although providing at least a few of those types of green complexes is/was very trendy.  In reality, if rough, balls rarely settle by an inlet and the real problem comes from deciding that we wanted a fw cut chipping area, in which case they can collect (more often, but not always).  That said, I was always careful to plan access routes to the green from the path so that no drainage crossed those high traffic areas, often leading to catch basins on either side of that walkway to reduce compaction and problems associated with heavy traffic.  Hopefully, those usually served a double purpose as artistic alternate hazards.  As always in design, there are several interrelated factors that make a design for any specific green (or hole) just the perfect solution there. 

And honestly, I think some hate the idea of catch basins more than their actual negative impacts.  I have played golf for 55 years and can count on my fingers (or no more than fingers and toes) the number of times I have been up against one.  Of course, their positive impacts can be unnoticed by golfers, while they will certainly notice soggy areas.


There is a reason that drainage is the only design element that is repeated 3x (i.e., drainage, drainage, drainage)  Designing for good drainage is a laudable goal.  A design goal of no catch basins is not.  (A design goal to minimize them to only where necessary isn't bad, however, for cost reasons, and oh yes, aesthetics.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 07:53:50 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2023, 05:37:12 PM »
For Ebert & Mackenzie's renovation at Harry Colt's Hamilton, they pushed up all 18 greens and added collection areas around the surfaces, essentially wrapping each green with short grass. They added little knobs and small mounds and then added drainage basins in every low point, so basically if you miss a green, you have to take relief from them. An interesting choice on a great golf course.
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2023, 06:40:44 AM »
Thanks Jeff for the very thorough response and insights.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2023, 11:49:40 AM »
I appreciate Jeff's points; I was a building and underground contractor and believe I understand drainage pretty well and it is very important.
But he doesn't directly answer my original question whuch concers the relative worth of a design that slapdashes catch basins throughout as an easy solution to some other goal.

Ballyliffin is one of the most prodigiously rolling surfaces I have ever seen; Tain has a stretch of hole with bountiful hollows, the  first few hole at Reddish Vale display what I believe they called rake and furrows and of course all of these are in the short grass. No catch basins period
The Creek Club's no 6( I believe) at Reynolds plantation is one of those straight uphill holes with several long transverse to a 15 degree slope swales in the landing zones that have at least two CB's in each swale where your ball naturally will collect. The course I play has a long swale across the fairway that terminates at a catch basin because the fairway edge/lip turns up adjacent to the drop off into the ruff? The water could simply flow into the long grass and there are probably 3-4 CB's visible at any place you stand along this fairway.
This, to me, is expediency over playability and I have shots influenced all the time at course like these over my 62 years of playing golf. I evaluate golf course I play and what I am trying to identify has increasingly attracted my attention and compomised my opinion of these courses.

I am just curious if this is merely one more minor fetish I have to deal with as my dotage advances or if maybe saner heads are sympathetic
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2023, 02:31:20 PM »
Ward,


Do those courses you just mention sit on sand soil?  Otherwise, a hollow with no catch basin would be wet and unplayable, unmowable.  Even in sand, I have put old oil drums (top and bottom removed, add a grate of some kind) in the ground just to get the drainage through the thatch and topsoil, but didn't connect them to any pipe.  (Enviro regs probably prevent that now)


It's hard to answer your question in a general way.  I tried and probably failed to explain the merit of adding cbs for design.  Philosophically, I hated to change general direction flow, but on flat ground, you may need catch basins far more often just for drainage.  On some of his flat Florida and SC courses, Pete Dye, for one, added catch basins every 80 feet.  My only complaint was that in some cases I saw, the basins were always at 80 feet, i.e., 4 sticks of 20 foot pipe, then the basin.  I think they could have cut one in two and had basins at 70 and 100 feet for variety, but I digress.


I think that flat, Florida style is what you may be objecting to.  As I mentioned, as drain pipes got cheaper, all of us experimented some of the time, and some of us experimented all of the time (at least in the 1980-90's) with the idea that you could shape fw and green surrounds more intensely, without as much regard for natural drain patterns, using basins to trap water wherever that ended up being needed.  Yes, that (for me anyway) started with the idea of creating Ross style hollows rather than the typical 50s-70's RTJ/Wilson style of bunkers and trees as the standard hazard. 


Overall, I think re-introducing those Ross like features was a good thing, even if any particular instance might be seen as overdone.  Even the idea that those basins might allow more design, i.e., more rolls in the fw to hinder the longest hitters without affecting the rest was, IMHO, one worth testing.


I wouldn't call any particular design style or drainage solution as "easy." Nor would I call adding catch basins "expediency" in most cases. Good drainage is key to playability, not a hindrance. There are just so many factors that make a solution very site specific. 


Your example of Reynolds Plantation has been used before here as an example of bad catch basins.  I haven't played there, but as I hinted in my last post, most golf holes in housing are placed in valleys (natural or otherwise) and thus, need drainage.  In rainy, steep, and red clay Georgia, I suspect those basins probably need to be big enough to be very noticeable, unfortunately. Also, depending on grade and corridor width left by the land planners, it is probable that many had to be right in the middle of the fw.  I contend that while you complain about the visuals of the basin, I can assure you most would complain more about a soggy fw more. 


In that case, the need for basins is caused by the overall goal of a facility, i.e., to place golf holes in big valleys for better views down from the houses.  If the course were a core course (and I know parts of them are) you could check to see if the gca had a different approach for those holes not between houses.  That would tell you if they just decided it was their standard style to grade fw and put basins everywhere, or if they were hole specific in their design.


And, it seems our experiences are different regarding catch basins affecting play, with me recalling just a handful, and you recall what seems like hundreds of bad experiences.  If you really have experienced that many shots truly affected by a basin (stance or lie) then you are either really unlucky, or you may have a slight fetish, LOL. ;)  I hope that answered your question of me at least a bit better.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2023, 09:05:41 AM »
Jeff
I don't want to beat this up but yesterday three of us had balls comem to rest in catch basins so i am hardly unlucky.
I am suppose I  want to introduce the idea that a designer could think hatrder before pivoting to catch basins and seek ways to drain using surface flow. The hole on the Creek  Club , as i mentioned , is a transition hole out of the valley routing played straight up a hill with at least 15 degrees of slope so theere is no way water will pond unless a false feature carelessly traps the natural drainage.
I will coninue to view these solutions as degrading more often then not design features.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2023, 09:20:32 AM »
Some very interesting questions and answers.
Thanks Ward and Jeff.


It could also be that way back in the day courses had little need, desire or requirement to worry about the effects of the downstream flow of their runoff. In a rural area,drainage/runoff was confined to its effect upon the golf property itself, and less so with the neighbors.


Nowadays permitting agencies and construction engineers are requiring runoff/drainage to be part of the process and putting in certain safeguards for unusual weather events. The term "over engineered" gets thrown out a lot-until there's a need/reason for it.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Inlets and Outlets of Golf
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2023, 11:57:00 AM »
Jeff
I don't want to beat this up but yesterday three of us had balls comem to rest in catch basins so i am hardly unlucky.
I am suppose I  want to introduce the idea that a designer could think hatrder before pivoting to catch basins and seek ways to drain using surface flow. The hole on the Creek  Club , as i mentioned , is a transition hole out of the valley routing played straight up a hill with at least 15 degrees of slope so theere is no way water will pond unless a false feature carelessly traps the natural drainage.
I will coninue to view these solutions as degrading more often then not design features.


Ward,


It may be that bent fw chipping areas and catch basins are a bad match, and they should be reserved for slower flowing grass, i.e. zoyzia perhaps or rough.


If a 400 yard hole pitches at 15 degrees from green to tee, ponding wouldn't be a problem, but my aforementioned comment about water concentrating in flow after 150-300 feet would probably still apply, not to mention, any time I ever let water run on a cart path, which is a common way to divert drainage before it hits the fw, it accelerates so rapidly that it is also a problem.  Either way, on a valley hole of any length, I think a catch basin here and there would definitely be needed in most soils.


As Jeff hints, between regulations (never drain water directly into a creek, catch it and store it first), shorter grass, higher maintenance expectations, etc., things have just changed from the Golden Age, where many very good courses just let water pond and evaporate slowly, eventually, I am sure (although I don't have a history of every course....just the courses I have seen, played, or worked on) those in charge found more basins necessary.  Nothing is constant but change, and the knee bone still connected to the thigh bone......every project is different, and some surely need basins for all reasons above.  I believe most of us gca's limit basins for aesthetic and cost reasons, but most would also agree with you that putting one every 80 feet is a bit much, after experimenting with those possibilities in the 80's.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach