Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design

[Peter Sayegh]

I never imagined anyone thinking it would be brutal to play.


Some hard shots? Of course.

Tim, please elaborate. Which ones stood out to you?

[Peter Sayegh]

I was told the course will be "brutal" by more than two people. It surprised me. I don't recall that adjective connected to one of your designs or your philosophy.

Could you or Angela guess why it may perceived-erroneously or otherwise-that way (even though it hasn't been "played")?

Peter:


It's a pretty hard course, especially if you are thinking about shooting par [which is 70] instead of trying to break 80 or 90.  It could play pretty long in the winter when the fairways are dormant, and the stretch from the 9th through the 14th or 15th is especially tough.


"Brutal" ?  I don't know about brutal.  More likely it's just not exactly what people expected.

Thanks Tom.

[Tim_Weiman]

I never imagined anyone thinking it would be brutal to play.


Some hard shots? Of course.

Tim, please elaborate. Which ones stood out to you?

Peter,


Honestly, I was really only thinking of one hole: #17. Given the state of my game these days, playing the hole from, say, 180 yards would be tough. My ball striking and iron play just aren’t that great.


That aside, when Tom gave Paul and I a tour, it seemed like the fairways had generous width and the sandy sides to fairways seemed to even add to that width.


One certainly can’t fully judge a course while it is still under construction with months to go for completion, but I just didn’t come away thinking the final product would be “brutal”.

[Tom_Doak]

Peter,

Honestly, I was really only thinking of one hole: #17. Given the state of my game these days, playing the hole from, say, 180 yards would be tough. My ball striking and iron play just aren’t that great.

That aside, when Tom gave Paul and I a tour, it seemed like the fairways had generous width and the sandy sides to fairways seemed to even add to that width.

One certainly can’t fully judge a course while it is still under construction with months to go for completion, but I just didn’t come away thinking the final product would be “brutal”.

Tim:


Why would you play the 17th from all the way back?  There are tees from 180 yards all the way down to 100 or so.  Not many resort guests would be playing it that far back.


By contrast, there are a couple of par-4's [9 and 13] that most people won't reach in two shots, even from the second or third set of tee markers.  That will turn some people off.  The tee shots are across big valleys so there just wasn't a good place to put an intermediate tee.

[Tim Martin]

Peter,

Honestly, I was really only thinking of one hole: #17. Given the state of my game these days, playing the hole from, say, 180 yards would be tough. My ball striking and iron play just aren’t that great.

That aside, when Tom gave Paul and I a tour, it seemed like the fairways had generous width and the sandy sides to fairways seemed to even add to that width.

One certainly can’t fully judge a course while it is still under construction with months to go for completion, but I just didn’t come away thinking the final product would be “brutal”.

By contrast, there are a couple of par-4's [9 and 13] that most people won't reach in two shots, even from the second or third set of tee markers.  That will turn some people off.  The tee shots are across big valleys so there just wasn't a good place to put an intermediate tee.

There are plenty of examples of good/great par 4 holes that won’t be reached from the member tees by most players. A couple holes out of the full set that fit this description create variety and despite the difficulty are cherished pars.

[Tim_Weiman]

Peter,

Honestly, I was really only thinking of one hole: #17. Given the state of my game these days, playing the hole from, say, 180 yards would be tough. My ball striking and iron play just aren’t that great.

That aside, when Tom gave Paul and I a tour, it seemed like the fairways had generous width and the sandy sides to fairways seemed to even add to that width.

One certainly can’t fully judge a course while it is still under construction with months to go for completion, but I just didn’t come away thinking the final product would be “brutal”.

Tim:


Why would you play the 17th from all the way back?  There are tees from 180 yards all the way down to 100 or so.  Not many resort guests would be playing it that far back.


By contrast, there are a couple of par-4's [9 and 13] that most people won't reach in two shots, even from the second or third set of tee markers.  That will turn some people off.  The tee shots are across big valleys so there just wasn't a good place to put an intermediate tee.

Tom,


I wouldn’t. I just miss the days when I could. The hole has a pretty epic feel to it, especially from the back.

[Tom_Doak]

There are plenty of examples of good/great par 4 holes that won’t be reached from the member tees by most players. A couple holes out of the full set that fit this description create variety and despite the difficulty are cherished pars.

Tim:


Obviously, I agree, or I wouldn't still build holes like that.  In fact I like them so much that I am prepared to listen to the gripes of players who are used to having eight sets of tees so they can reach every green in regulation. 

[archie_struthers]

 


I actually hate the multiple tee deal despite the sense of it.  Clutters the playing field and it’s tough in the superintendent. . I’d vote for a daily and forward tee combo , and if someone wants to play the tips have at it !   


Simplify simplify simplify

[Tim_Weiman]

There are plenty of examples of good/great par 4 holes that won’t be reached from the member tees by most players. A couple holes out of the full set that fit this description create variety and despite the difficulty are cherished pars.

Tim:


Obviously, I agree, or I wouldn't still build holes like that.  In fact I like them so much that I am prepared to listen to the gripes of players who are used to having eight sets of tees so they can reach every green in regulation. 

Tom,


Nothing wrong with a few Par Fours that are very tough for many guys to reach in two shots. I think that adds to a golf course.


IMO, the psychology of such a hole works. One might not always be able to reach it in two, but successfully scrambling for a par might even feel like making a birdie.

[Tom_Doak]

IMO, the psychology of such a hole works. One might not always be able to reach it in two, but successfully scrambling for a par might even feel like making a birdie.

Tim:


Mostly nowadays people just want a cheap birdie. 


It's possible they will change one of the holes to a par-5, as they are 480-490 yards from the back tee and 430+ from the middle.  We would probably have done so already except that these are the 9th and 13th holes we are talking about, and the 10th and 12th are two of the three existing par-5's, and they don't really want to have three par-5's in four holes, either!


As I said, it's a big-boy stretch of holes.

[Ira Fishman]

Tom,


The US A does not return to Pinehurst until 2038, but was part of the design brief to have PH 10 as an option for the second course? Or maybe to attract the NCAAs?


Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

The US A does not return to Pinehurst until 2038, but was part of the design brief to have PH 10 as an option for the second course? Or maybe to attract the NCAAs?

Ira:  No, that was not a stated goal, they just asked me to build the best course I could.  I think we all figured that between #2 and #4 they didn’t really need another championship course.  But, they may re-think that someday.

[Tim Gallant]

IMO, the psychology of such a hole works. One might not always be able to reach it in two, but successfully scrambling for a par might even feel like making a birdie.

We would probably have done so already except that these are the 9th and 13th holes we are talking about, and the 10th and 12th are two of the three existing par-5's, and they don't really want to have three par-5's in four holes, either!


As I said, it's a big-boy stretch of holes.

It works for North Berwick to have three in a four hole stretch! 


That said, I think the resort should stick with the long par 3 (14th?) and long par 4s. It's nice to make a birdie, but there's a difference between making birdie on 18 at Sheep Ranch, and making birdie on 18 at Merion.

[Peter Sayegh]

IMO, the psychology of such a hole works. One might not always be able to reach it in two, but successfully scrambling for a par might even feel like making a birdie.

Tim:


Mostly nowadays people just want a cheap birdie. 
As I said, it's a big-boy stretch of holes.

Tom,
I don't see birdie chasers nearly as much as I see T(H)ip poseurs who only think the back tees exist.

The US A does not return to Pinehurst until 2038, but was part of the design brief to have PH 10 as an option for the second course? Or maybe to attract the NCAAs?

Ira:  No, that was not a stated goal, they just asked me to build the best course I could.  I think we all figured that between #2 and #4 they didn’t really need another championship course.  But, they may re-think that someday.

I wonder if #10 would host any tournament before PCC allows significant access to its members. Just a thought.

[Tom_Doak]

The only tournament I know of is the Renaissance Cup in November.  We thought about doing it last fall, but the superintendents wanted everything to be 100% which it certainly wasn’t then.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,


One more point I want to make about #17. When you gave Paul and I a tour of the course, we didn’t actually observe the green up close. But even from the back tee I could see the variety of pin positions the green offered.


IMO, a front right pin position is much different than back left and I suspect it could be tricky for both resort guests and members who get to play the course more frequently.


What I imagine is standing on the tee and being undecided regarding club selection. A well struck club “X” might be perfect, but if not so well struck it might  mean falling short into the water.


On the other hand, club “Y” - 1 or 2 longer than “X” - might take the water out of play but leave a tricky downhill putt or chip.


There are many forced carry Par 3s, but this aspect on #17 makes it different and pretty cool IMO.

[Peter Sayegh]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2024/03/26/pinehurst-unveils-sandmines-branding-for-new-course-and-surrounds/?sh=4d417a584d3e

For you PCC members here, was this a surprise?
"Pinehurst Resort" has certainly trumped/screwed "Pinehurst Country Club".

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:


I don't understand your last post.  There is nothing in that story about the members and what their deal is for the new course.  Are you saying that because they've branded it differently there is no access at all for the members?


I honestly don't know anything about how the memberships and resort play coexist.  But I don't think the members had anything to do with funding another course, so I don't know what rights to it they should expect, unless their agreement specifically addresses future courses.

[Joe_Tucholski]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2024/03/26/pinehurst-unveils-sandmines-branding-for-new-course-and-surrounds/?sh=4d417a584d3e

For you PCC members here, was this a surprise?
"Pinehurst Resort" has certainly trumped/screwed "Pinehurst Country Club".

Was what a surprise?  The only thing that I can think is you are asking if as a member I feel screwed that the resort is expanding and not including membership play on #10.  To that I'll say I don't feel slighted at all.

When I signed up it was clear the standard golf membership included courses #1-6 with a club within a club option for #7 with a higher monthly fee.  They've changed/added membership categories a bit but the standard 1-6 membership has remained.

I wouldn't be surprised if the golf landscape changes at some point in the future and they add #10 as an option for members (likely with another membership category - and additional fee).

[Tim Gallant]

Congrats to all that worked on the course and got it ready for tomorrow's opening. That's a heck of an accomplishment to start and finish a course in a year and a month give or take a few days.


I'll be there in a few weeks (fingers crossed on the weather!), and I was having a scout of the scorecard. It was nice to see that there are only four sets of tees, but you can play combos. I think this is a great way to provide a distance for all resort guests, but not have to set-up six or seven different tees. Depending on the day/conditions/wind, I'd like to think I would flex between the greens (5700), whites (6450) or a combo (6100).

[Tom_Doak]

Depending on the day/conditions/wind, I'd like to think I would flex between the greens (5700), whites (6450) or a combo (6100).

It is a par 70 so those tees all play 250-300 yards longer than they sound.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Stopped by on opening day today to try to spend some money in the shop, but… they're only allowing those playing.

Oh well.

[Tim Martin]

Stopped by on opening day today to try to spend some money in the shop, but… they're only allowing those playing.

Oh well.

I heard they are carrying the “Duck and Cover” line of outerwear which would have been perfect for you. Next time….

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I heard they are carrying the “Duck and Cover” line of outerwear which would have been perfect for you. Next time….

Contributing to the discussion like always. Thanks, Peter Pan. Don't ever grow up.

[Rob Marshall]

Stopped by on opening day today to try to spend some money in the shop, but… they're only allowing those playing.

Oh well.

I heard they are carrying the “Duck and Cover” line of outerwear which would have been perfect for you. Next time….

Tim, Not sure if congratulations are in order but it looks like you are off the ignore list! I guess we needed to know he couldn't buy merch at # 10.