Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design

[Ira Fishman]

Tom,


When you were planning the green complexes and shaping, was Ross and particularly Number 2 in the back of your mind?


Ira

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,


When you were planning the green complexes and shaping, was Ross and particularly Number 2 in the back of your mind?


Ira

Ira,


When Tom gave Paul Rudovsky and I a tour it even included Tom giving Eric Iverson his thoughts for a green that hadn’t yet been designed, much less built. Listening to Tom I got the feeling what he expressed fit for that green site. I certainly don’t recall any reference to Ross on that hole or any other.


Tom obviously respects the Ross Pinehurst tradition, but in my opinion #10 will be #10 not #2. This applies to the property as well as the architecture.

[Tom_Doak]

When you were planning the green complexes and shaping, was Ross and particularly Number 2 in the back of your mind?

Ira:


Yes, but more in the sense that we ought to do something different than Ross did, instead of copying him, considering that the area in general and the resort in particular has so many Donald Ross greens!  It would be kind of silly to copy the greens of #2 on a course four miles away from it . . . just like I didn't want to build a Redan hole at Sebonack when the best one in the world was a couple hundred yards from our ninth tee.


One thought I had early on was that while Pinehurst has a lot of raised greens it doesn't have any that resemble punchbowls, even though the ground is sandy enough to make a low green work.  So, I made a point of looking for a couple of green sites that sat down low in the terrain:  the 5th and 6th sit in little bowls, the 9th is on a saddle, and the 3rd is a fallaway green at grade.  We really have just tried to make the greens as varied as we can, and I think it's a really good mix of styles.


That's not to say we haven't gone and walked around Pinehurst #2 occasionally for inspiration . . . more in terms of the fairway widths and the bunkering than the greens, but our 13th and 18th greens borrow a little from course #2.

[Peter Sayegh]

I got a laugh how they swerved from the first hole to the third fairway!  The second hole is still a work in progress.

Tom (or those who have walked it):
If I followed the video correctly, can you comment on the fourth hole?
It's sandy areas are jarring/striking from above.
Do I see a "pot" bunker, a "wok" bunker, and an Engh-like "scar" bunker in the same frame?
Just looked unique to me.
Thanks.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I like the punch bowl idea, they seem to always be fun whether you're going to a frat party or golfing.

P.S.  Are there any downsides to sodding, other than the obvious of additional expense?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kalen,




My considerations (Tom’s may be more or different):



Using sod will get a course in to play quicker but once in play, I find it usually takes a little longer to provide a perfect playing surface. This is not really an issue on fairways but is definitely a consideration on greens.


It looks like Tom is seeding the greens. This will mean the team have had to work that little bit harder on the tie-ins between green and surrounds as even in sand, the topsoil can’t all be shaped smoothly as one (sod having a thickness to consider, seed having none).


Only other thing I would concern myself about is bringing “foreign” bought in sod onto a site is almost never as good as using local sod harvested from the same site / soil. Sounds like Tom doesn’t have that problem here…

[Tom_Doak]

If I followed the video correctly, can you comment on the fourth hole?
It's sandy areas are jarring/striking from above.
Do I see a "pot" bunker, a "wok" bunker, and an Engh-like "scar" bunker in the same frame?

There are a variety of bunkers out there, this was one of the first holes shaped and we were still very much experimenting with a style.  [I'm not sure we have settled on anything in particular!]  I haven't tried to name them all, but I think the "scar" must be the bunker I added to the right of the green [which I expanded over there], and if so, that's the first time my work has been compared to Jim Engh's.  I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Stewart Abramson]

TD Video on PH - X with article


https://www.homeofgolf.com/x-marksthe10spot/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=Golfweek&utm_campaign=May17Send

[Mike Feeney]

At the 1:38 mark of the video Stewart posted, there is a large mound with a square plateau'ed top...flanked by smaller rounded mounds fronting a green complex.Wonder TD's inspiration for this and the length of the hole.  Looks like fun.
The beauty/luxury of having an abundance of sand!

[Dean DiBerardino]

Check out the recent (May 12) drone flyover video below from Zig Golf...

https://youtu.be/maz8qHz2M9g

[Tom_Doak]

At the 1:38 mark of the video Stewart posted, there is a large mound with a square plateau'ed top...flanked by smaller rounded mounds fronting a green complex.Wonder TD's inspiration for this and the length of the hole.  Looks like fun.
The beauty/luxury of having an abundance of sand!

The square thing was the 4th tee at The Pit, which is now short and left of the green on our 8th hole.  We are still going to whittle away at that to give it a more natural shape, but it will make the approach blind from the left side of the fairway.

[Peter Sayegh]

Tom, can you talk about the eighth in detail here? I got directed to a few sites regarding the hole, including your Instagram (if not your official one, apologies).

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqbv9yZN0YM/

Why did "all the crew [lobby]" to keep it? Did YOU consider keeping it originally? Was it thought too radical or hindering early on to preserve/feature?
Do you have a feel as to how the hole will be played? Do you think the planned/planted iteration will last (I believe you mentioned its quirkiness in another thread)?

Do you have two adjectives to describe #10? Does Angela Moser have her own two adjectives?

Thanks, Peter.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, can you talk about the eighth in detail here? I got directed to a few sites regarding the hole, including your Instagram (if not your official one, apologies).

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqbv9yZN0YM/

Why did "all the crew [lobby]" to keep it? Did YOU consider keeping it originally? Was it thought too radical or hindering early on to preserve/feature?
Do you have a feel as to how the hole will be played? Do you think the planned/planted iteration will last (I believe you mentioned its quirkiness in another thread)?

Do you have two adjectives to describe #10? Does Angela Moser have her own two adjectives?

Thanks, Peter.

Hi Peter:


I'd rather NOT talk about every detail of every hole of every course we are building, before they are open.  Some of my clients are more hungry for the publicity than others, but I think it is fair to guess that a lot of people will get to Pinehursr in 2024 to form their own opinions, and I'd rather have their honest reactions than try to put words into their mouths!


I would not have built the hole if I didn't think it was going to remain.  My initial skepticism was for just that reason:  I thought the resort might be too conservative to let the mound stay.  They had expressed the desire for the course to be cool, but they were wary of appearing that they were trying to mimic Tobacco Road, and they didn't really want something that wild.


However, when Bob Denman came out for his second site visit and I found him wandering around the 8th hole, he was genuinely excited about it and asked a lot of questions about how we were going to finish it and about the playability.  And if Mr. Dedman likes it, then Pinehurst likes it.  So the mound made the final cut.


At present, the visibility of the mound distracts attention from the WILD contours of the fairway, which I think will be the unique and possibly controversial feature of the 8th hole.  As Adam testifies, it is definitely not like the other holes out there right now, although I believe that if and when they build a second 18 holes on that property, it will have been a good foreshadowing of what is to come.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: have you had a chance to see what Kyle Franz did at Southern Pines  - I think it is brilliant.


Jerry

[Peter Sayegh]

[...] I believe that if and when they build a second 18 holes on that property, it will have been a good foreshadowing of what is to come.

Interest piqued.
Thanks for the reply.

[Ben Stephens]

Tom,


What are the average size of the greens? as they look huge on the fly throughs - possibly to allow for contouring and pin positions?


Cheers
Ben

[Tom_Doak]

What are the average size of the greens? as they look huge on the fly throughs - possibly to allow for contouring and pin positions?

They're a little bigger than normal -- maybe 7000 sf or 7500?  The 3rd and 4th are very big.  The smallest green on the course is the one I shaped myself, the long par-3 14th.

[Ben Stephens]

What are the average size of the greens? as they look huge on the fly throughs - possibly to allow for contouring and pin positions?

They're a little bigger than normal -- maybe 7000 sf or 7500?  The 3rd and 4th are very big.  The smallest green on the course is the one I shaped myself, the long par-3 14th.

Whoa - that's quite big sounds like a course that putts are more important. Would this be similar at Cabot Highlands which has already started construction


For others on this site its a contrast with many English inland courses like Sunningdale which are around 4500 sf on average - more chipping I guess.

[Greg Krueger]

Anyone have any status updates?

[Matt Kardash]

After watching that video hole 4 gives me huge Pete Dye vibes with the trouble left, the green angled right tempting you to make a difficult pitch over a bunker. However, instead of bunkers, Dye would have had a mound left forcing an incorrectly placed drive to have a blind approach.

[Tom_Doak]

Anyone have any status updates?

They sodded the last fairway last week, and have targeted an April 2024 opening.  Angela is headed off on a vacation, and will be back in the fall to do some more detail work on the bunkers and native areas.


I haven’t seen it since June, but some of the crew have played the opening and closing holes a bunch of times.  The report is that it plays quite long (for mortals).

[Greg Krueger]

Pinehurst just announced a April 3, 2024 opening. Congrats to everyone involved!!

[Peter Sayegh]

Tom, can you talk about the eighth in detail here? I got directed to a few sites regarding the hole, including your Instagram (if not your official one, apologies).

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqbv9yZN0YM/

Why did "all the crew [lobby]" to keep it? Did YOU consider keeping it originally? Was it thought too radical or hindering early on to preserve/feature?
Do you have a feel as to how the hole will be played? Do you think the planned/planted iteration will last (I believe you mentioned its quirkiness in another thread)?

Do you have two adjectives to describe #10? Does Angela Moser have her own two adjectives?

Thanks, Peter.

Hi Peter:


I'd rather NOT talk about every detail of every hole of every course we are building, before they are open.  Some of my clients are more hungry for the publicity than others, but I think it is fair to guess that a lot of people will get to Pinehursr in 2024 to form their own opinions, and I'd rather have their honest reactions than try to put words into their mouths!


I would not have built the hole if I didn't think it was going to remain.  My initial skepticism was for just that reason:  I thought the resort might be too conservative to let the mound stay.  They had expressed the desire for the course to be cool, but they were wary of appearing that they were trying to mimic Tobacco Road, and they didn't really want something that wild.


However, when Bob Denman came out for his second site visit and I found him wandering around the 8th hole, he was genuinely excited about it and asked a lot of questions about how we were going to finish it and about the playability.  And if Mr. Dedman likes it, then Pinehurst likes it.  So the mound made the final cut.


At present, the visibility of the mound distracts attention from the WILD contours of the fairway, which I think will be the unique and possibly controversial feature of the 8th hole.  As Adam testifies, it is definitely not like the other holes out there right now, although I believe that if and when they build a second 18 holes on that property, it will have been a good foreshadowing of what is to come.

Tom,

Your assumption regarding the eighth may be spot on.
Seems the club has had preview days (just walking the course) for PCC caddies/pros recently.
None of them mentioned the terrain beyond the hill.

I was told the course will be "brutal" by more than two people. It surprised me. I don't recall that adjective connected to one of your designs or your philosophy.

Could you or Angela guess why it may perceived-erroneously or otherwise-that way (even though it hasn't been "played")?

For those who HAVE played it, please chime in.
Thanks, Peter.

[Tom_Doak]

I was told the course will be "brutal" by more than two people. It surprised me. I don't recall that adjective connected to one of your designs or your philosophy.

Could you or Angela guess why it may perceived-erroneously or otherwise-that way (even though it hasn't been "played")?

Peter:


It's a pretty hard course, especially if you are thinking about shooting par [which is 70] instead of trying to break 80 or 90.  It could play pretty long in the winter when the fairways are dormant, and the stretch from the 9th through the 14th or 15th is especially tough.


"Brutal" ?  I don't know about brutal.  More likely it's just not exactly what people expected.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,


When you graciously gave Paul Rudovsky and I a tour of the course, I never imagined anyone thinking it would be brutal to play.


Some hard shots? Of course.