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MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim,

Thanks, it really is perplexing without that very old binder that Mr. Christman referenced.

I'd really like to know what Hackney was paid for.   It would help solidify things in my mind if he had any prior design experience but I can't find a mention of him in that regard.   He also had no other design attributions I'm aware of after Phoenixville was built despite quite a bit of golf course construction taking place near Philadelphia right after WWI.

Further, the routing at Phoenixville is a quite good routing across a property that has some challenges.    Either he was a bit of a first time's the charm kind of guy or perhaps his "Professional Services" were for something else like equipment or lessons.

On the other hand, if Hugh Wilson had been more involved one wonders if the club would have had their early agronomic struggles that are documented in the minutes.  Every couple of months they were exceeding budget and needing more manure, or more mushroom stuff, or more fertilizer, etc. and needing to go to the board for authorization.   That being said, it's not like they cultivated and planted the entire property prior and having been used to playing on leased farmland prior, probably thought they could do it on the cheap, without irrigation and without a full time knowledgeable superintendent.   It pretty much was a case of pay me now or pay me later.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 12:52:10 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, If this case has been "perplexing" and "frustrating" for you it is perhaps because you have had a desired conclusion in mind from the beginning, and so you are trying to twist and rationalize away the historical record in order to keep propping up your desired result.  

Take, for example, the 1915 article which stated, "The course has already been laid out by a professional."  You don't want this to be true, so you make up attenuated (and, frankly, laughable) reasons to ignore this article.   You don't take it at face value because it was on the front page of the newspaper as opposed to the sports page.   You don't take it at face value because in your mind the writing was "more attuned to a local community paper," whatever that is supposed to mean.

Look at the article.  It is full of detailed information which could only have come directly from sources within the club itself.  Yet you insist on ignoring it because you don't like the content.  And you are taking a somewhat similar approach with the other two references to professionals who may have been involved with the creation of the course.  You have no contemporaneous record of Hugh Wison having even been involved, yet you insist you have proven he is the architect.  You've got three references to professionals potentially having been involved, yet you rationalize away each one.  

It is quite obvious from the beginning that your really want Hugh Wilson to have been the architect, and that you will dismiss, ignore, or rationalize away anything which leads to any other conclusions.  

This is not how sound analysis is supposed to work. Wishful thinking isn't enough.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 01:24:07 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

You are a funny guy.  I am the one who brought all of the evidence about "a professional" to public light on this thread, through researching the old newspapers and the Country Club minutes.   I'm the one who made the connection to James B. Hackney that had previously gone unnoticed so your accusations of my having a foregone conclusion are simply absurd on the face of them.

The fact is that there was a "Phoenixville Golf Club" that preceeded the "Phoenixville Country Club" by 15 years and a long-time member and former Club Secretary who is quite remarkably well at 82 years and who has a sterling reputation clearly recalls the Minutes from this organization being in the clubhouse, upstairs, in a very old three ring binder.   He also has stated that these Minutes indicate that Hugh Wilson was the course architect.   He certainly has no reason to lie, he's been saying this for decades before anyone cared about this stuff, and I'm not sure why you or anyone else would be inclined to not believe him.

Not being able to find that binder is indeed frustrating when one is seeking to know the entire story, no matter who the architect.   Why wouldn't it be?   I've never said that I "proved" anything here but I do think we're a lot further down the road of understanding the timelines and much of the early history of the golf course.

If you're now satisfied that the club hired a teaching pro with no architectural experience in 1915 to lay out their golf course for $17.80 and that's what "Professional Services" meant, then you're free to move on.

If instead you simply feel the need to troll my every post you're welcome, but it really isn't very becoming or attractive and everyone here sees that, I must tell you.




« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 01:52:01 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, I haven't accused you of unethically hiding or suppressing relevant information, so I am not sure what you are on about.  My comments have nothing to do with the factual information you have brought forward and everything to do with your shoddy analysis and over the top pronouncements, such as when you claim you have proven that Wilson was the architect, or when you dismiss the other facts for no valid reason.   While I appreciate the information you have brought forward, I wouldn't think you would feel that you deserve some special commendation for so doing.  

For example, While I appreciate that you you did bring forward the mention of the professional having laid out the course, you immediately dismissed it for no good reason, and when I asked you post the article you first refused. Fortunately you soon thought better of such a petty and evasive move.   Unfortunately, you are still aren't giving the contents its due.   The second part is the problem.

As for me supposedly trolling your thread, you and others may want to take a look at the first few pages.  This thread was started while you were away, and it functioned quite well with my contributions.  Am I no longer allowed to post about Phoenixville now that you are back? If anything has upset the balance it is that you seem to think that your analysis is beyond challenge.

As I said earlier, go ahead and keep ignoring the factual record and pretending that you have proven that Wilson is the architect.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 02:31:26 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
I generally find when someone has to misrepresent you to make their point that it's not worth responding to.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Misrepresented you?  I've misrepresented nothing. You stated you were "virtually certain" that Wilson was "the Architect" at Phoenixville, and so far as you were concerned, the facts were in and you had proven your case, and any additional information would only be sought for "archival" purposes:  

"We will continue to search for the earliest minutes but at this point, only for their archival historical purposes, not to prove the case.  

We feel that's already been done."


I understand why you'd not want to stand by such a ridiculous assertion, but it is bush league for you to pretend like I misrepresented you.  I did no such thing.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:50:39 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

The Phoenixville Country Club is celebrating their 100th year anniversary and are excited to learn more about their history and a number of members and staff have been following this thread in that regard.   As such, please refrain from further dumping of your personal vendetta on Joe Bausch's thread here as they deserve a little respect and decorum and don't deserve having this thread turn into another public pissing contest.   I'm sure everyone, myself included, are appreciative of the 1928 aerial you found online that you provided here a few years ago as proof of your interest.   Thank you.   Now please stop embarrassing yourself and I'll happily go back to ignoring you.  


On a happier note, a friend sent along some scorecards of Phoenixville he found at the USGA.   Unfortunately, all of them are after the course changed hole sequencing but they are still a nice addition here.  




« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 10:19:40 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, speaking of pissing contests, how many more times are you going to respond to me to tell me you aren't responding to me?

As for my participation, please don't try to tell me where and when I can post.  And keep in mind that, had I not challenged you, some might have mistakenly believed that you had actually found proof indicating that Wilson was the architect.  And it was after my cajoling that you produced the newspaper article so that others could consider for themselves the importance of a detailed contemporaneous account indicating that a professional had laid out the course.  And without my challenge you and Joe might not have found the other two references to early professionals potentially having been involved.  

In short, rather than insulting me perhaps you should be thanking me for refusing to accept your blanket pronouncement that Hugh Wilson was "almost certainly the Architect."
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 12:27:46 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
An interesting parallel might be what happened at Lancaster Country Club, site of this year's US Women's Open and located in the rural county next to Chester County, home of Phoenixville.

Like Phoenixville, Lancaster began golf in 1900 on a nine-hole course on leased farmland.   John Reid, a pro from the Philadelphia area was hired to lay out nine holes on that farmland and was paid $28 for his efforts at that time.

Around 1913, the club determined that it needed bigger digs and a property (Wirth Farm) of 150 acres became available.   Five (5) members purchased the property and then sold whatever the club needed for their new home at no profit.

Sixty acres were originally purchased and a nine-hole course was laid out by a unnamed professional who was paid $100 for his work.

The new location opened in late 1913.   To date, we've still never been able to determine who laid out the first nine holes at Lancaster, or how much of those holes were retained by William Flynn later that decade when the club went to 18 holes.

By comparison, if the $17.80 Phoenixville paid to James B. Hackney was indeed for golf course design services they got themselves a real steal of a deal considering local comparative rates.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom Buggy

  • Karma: +0/-0
I know a little bit about Frankford, mostly from Finegan's book.  Those are very nice drawings that somebody saved after all these years!
Joe, Do you know who designed the original Frankford course, and what year the club was founded? Did Tillinghast have any involvement at Frankford? Thanks.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Wilson design?; all holes up)
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2023, 11:38:53 AM »

The fact is that there was a "Phoenixville Golf Club" that preceded the "Phoenixville Country Club" by 15 years and a long-time member and former Club Secretary who is quite remarkably well at 82 years and who has a sterling reputation clearly recalls the Minutes from this organization being in the clubhouse, upstairs, in a very old three ring binder.   He also has stated that these Minutes indicate that Hugh Wilson was the course architect.   He certainly has no reason to lie, he's been saying this for decades before anyone cared about this stuff...



Joe Bausch and I had the opportunity to learn more about the origins of Phoenixville and the Hugh Wilson lineage while having the honor of giving a tour of the Cobb's Creek property to a 91-year old gentlemen who used to play Skins games with Charlie Sifford and Howard Wheeler in the 1950s while attending Penn Law School that long-time Philadelphia PGA Historian Pete Trenham (with son Mike) introduced us to.


This gentleman was sharp as a tack and also had been a long time member of Phoenixville.   He conveyed to us that the McAvoy family (father Tom Bell McAvoy, Sr was a Charter member of Phoenixville and prominent local businessman) and son Tom Jr. were the source of the information on Hugh Wilson that other long-time members like Fred Chrisman (who sadly passed since I last posted on this thread) and our new friend as well as others like Bill Kittleman anecdotally passed along over the years.   


This second-hand account gave significant new credence to the Wilson story, at least from mine and Joe's perspective.   We'd still love to locate the three-ring binder with the club minutes of the preceding entity (Phoenixville Golf Club), but I no longer have much doubt that the story is true.   Others can decide for themselves.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2023, 11:40:24 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Wilson design?; all holes up)
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2023, 12:09:46 PM »
Also, this seems as good a place as any to put this item I was able to photograph in the Merion Clubhouse this past autumn.   It's a letter from Hugh Wilson's daughter Louise to writer Charles Price after reading his article in Golf Digest for the 1981 US Open.  Louise was born in 1906 so would have been just a young girl during these events but seems quite sure of her knowledge of what transpired.


Price's article contained two inaccurate statements; that Wilson was born in Scotland and that he never designed any courses besides Merion, both of which she sought to clarify and correct.

Will transcribe letter later
« Last Edit: January 08, 2023, 03:15:38 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Wilson design?; all holes up) New
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2023, 07:47:50 PM »
 :P




When I first read this I felt like I had traveled back in time. Indeed I did given the  thread started in 2015. Anybody new to the site would have no idea how many  "spirited" discussions like this occurred in the early days. As much as Moriarity comes across badly at times.  he brought plenty of life to the party. TEP and Moriarity had some of the best tete a tete's re: Merion that ever graced the pages here. Throw Pat Mucci into the  mix and you had quite a donnybrook,  8) 8) 8)


Must say today's crowd shows more mutual respect but some fun reading in the day !
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 09:09:33 AM by archie_struthers »

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