Golf apps. Worse than cameras.

[Jim Hoak]

Even with all its faults, the handicap system is what makes our game unique and playable by all levels of players.  I cannot play tennis--or almost any other sport--with players with greatly different skills than I have.  But I can play golf.
Granted, there are ways to improve the handicap system, but let's keep at it.  It is--in  many ways--the heart and soul of golf.
By the way, I would guess that there are 10 times the number of players with ego or mullet handicaps--too low for their real skills--than there are sandbagger handicaps.  When you throw up balls and get a mullet as a partner, that is almost worse than a sandbagger!                                                                   

[Rob Marshall]

FWIW mobile scoring is great for kids, because parents and other family/friends can follow along, and the same is true at every level. Whether people care what a 40-year-old is doing such that they'd follow is a different matter, of course, but… live scoring is beneficial. It's also as noted by others a way of providing a live leaderboard to everyone without having actual live physical leaderboards.

I'd argue mobile scoring is awful for children.
The last thing we need is more parental involvement at the golf course and for kids to sink their heads even more firmly into their phones.


There is incredible value in removing youth from their devices- and golf is one of the greatest gifts in this effort.
Being present in nature while interacting with your peers while performing to the best of your ability should be done without the interference of society.


I know its coming now- and I just take my card, and walk directly to my bag and begin my routine. It is an absolute hindrance to be forced to fumble back and forth with a device while trying to compete at a high level.


Moreover, the scores are NEVER correct- so I feel no obligation to the field.


On the first tee of the MET OPEN at the Black this year my group was perfectly silent when asked.


You want to execute mobile scoring? Take advantage of your on course personnel to log scores.


"stop and smell the roses, for you only play one round"


"things with their head down get eaten"

There have been so many issues with parents getting involved that the Connecticut PGA section doesn’t even allow them on the course for their junior events. I think the mobile scoring is a curse for junior players inasmuch as they feel bad enough when they don’t play well not to mention the stigma attached to screwing up the score for themselves, their group or the entire field.

Good point Tim, It adds more pressure on the kids performance.

[Rob Marshall]

Even with all its faults, the handicap system is what makes our game unique and playable by all levels of players.  I cannot play tennis--or almost any other sport--with players with greatly different skills than I have.  But I can play golf.
Granted, there are ways to improve the handicap system, but let's keep at it.  It is--in  many ways--the heart and sole of golf.
By the way, I would guess that there are 10 times the number of players with ego or mullet handicaps--too low for their real skills--than there are sandbagger handicaps.  When you throw up balls and get a mullet as a partner, that is almost worse than a sandbagger!                                                                   

Jim, you are probably right about vanity handicaps but sandbaggers are STEALING from the competition.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why are we debating an app that clearly states in its own Privacy Policy that it is not to be used by children under 13?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I'd argue mobile scoring is awful for children. The last thing we need is more parental involvement at the golf course and for kids to sink their heads even more firmly into their phones.

If the parent is already there, they already know what's going on. It's great for a grandmother who can't get to a tournament, to still follow along, or a parent at work. My college kids all have live scoring, and many college parents can't take off work, drive six hours, etc. to watch their kids play golf.

HJGT does live scoring, and the phones are what they "sign" at the end of the day. It's great. No increased issues, and it lets me as their coach follow along, too, in addition to parents, friends, family.

Kids playing golf don't "sink more firmly into their phones." They enter the scores and then resume PLAYING GOLF. It doesn't sound like you've been to many tournaments with kids and live scoring and are just guessing at what happens and the effects.

Being present in nature while interacting with your peers while performing to the best of your ability should be done without the interference of society.

"Society" isn't interfering. They're entering an app on a phone and putting it back in their bag or push cart. In HJGT events, they're GIVEN a phone to use, for example. It's no different than taking a few seconds to write down scores on a scorecard, except it transmits them so others can see.

Erik,
You mustn't be serious...
If you believe that young folks (on the average) simply enter the score and place the phone back in their bag and resist the temptation to engage in other apps, texts, etc, then it seems to me it is you that have not been around young folks at golf tournaments (while I assume that is not the case- you surely represent the opposite with the position that kids will resist the urge to engage their device otherwise)

I won't argue that live scoring makes it fun for those not able to follow in-person- or even those that are in fact following. My own mother would do well to see live scoring when she makes the rare appearance at one of my events- then again my mother couldn't give a shit what I shoot- she just enjoys watching me and my fellow competitors do our thing at a beautiful golf course. However- as I said before- that should be on the tournament administrators and NOT THE PLAYER, as it takes away from the SOUL of the game.


Competitive rounds are for the PLAYER-  not the parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, coach, fan, etc - perhaps this where the disconnect lies.

"Most of the luxuries and many of the so-called comforts of life are not only not indispensable, but positive hindrances to the elevation of mankind." Henry David Thoreau

[Jim Hoak]

Rob, yes, sandbaggers are stealing from their competitors as you say, but vanity handicappers are stealing from their partners!
Why is it so hard to follow the rules and turn in all scores as prescribed?
Both of these types are undermining the handicap system and the game of golf.

[V. Kmetz]

As a lifelong scorecard collector who also collects record albums and books I fear the day in the not too distant future when clubs and courses realize there is no longer a need for printed scorecards.  Look how quickly scoresheets in bowling disappeared and now everyone can view my 398 series at a glance.

Mike,

I mourn the days you got a physical ticket to a sporting event or concert.

Yeah, that's the cherry on the sundae... but I have no desire to go such events anymore anyway, whether its music, sports, performance, what have you... and golf is literally the worst live event to follow in person...sure its nice to have some youthful experiences running around to get more perspective and drink in how great the players are at the range or on a few shots... but the preferred seating, cattle crowd chokes and restrictions on bringing your own picnic have just ruined the "DIY after ticket" experience that prevailed when I first saw live golf in the early 80s.  (My step mom was literally knitting in a lawn chair about 20 yards from Gilder's double-eagle to close out the 3rd rd of 82 Westchester Classic)...


We humans end up making everything stink, planes...phones...computers...democracy...what have you... and these apps that the OP rightfully assails are the ground dust coughed out in the human air.

[Jim O’Kane]

15 years ago in a Chicago Dist better ball event, one of our competitors was walking back to the 10th tee from the clubhouse after a pit stop, pulled his phone out to check for messages, and a CDGA official DQ'd him and told him he had to leave. He told the guy to get bent, and finished the round with his partner. Now, the CDGA has you posting scores on your phone as you go. Pretty soon there will be cart cams to record each shot (no more 46s!). Big Brother comes to golf...

Wow. I played in hundreds of CDGA events growing up in the late 70's to late 80's. This is disheartening to hear on so many levels. Along with the WGA in Golf, IL, I always thought of the two organizations as pillars of class and guarding the traditions of the game.

Disappointing to hear this of the CDGA. That guy who was DQ'd ought to write a letter to the CDGA board reminding them of the incident and what they're doing now, simply to point out the lunacy in their old policy.

[Amol Yajnik]

Used the Golf Genius app for 36 holes at a Fried Egg event earlier this year.  It maybe takes 10 seconds for each hole to put in the scores, pretty much no different than writing the scores down on a scorecard.  I don't see what the big fuss is about.


FWIW, I haven't written down my score on a physical scorecard in a few years.  I have Arccos for shot tracking and that has a scorecard feature in it.  Get to the end of the round and it's all right there on my phone.  Plus, as Erik has said, you can set up your phone not to get texts/calls while you are on the course but still have these apps work for you. 

[Pete_Pittock]

At least a phone will be available if there is a medical emergency.
Will there be an "*" to inform that these scores are not necessarily accurate.
Deliberately posting erroneous scores should make the entrant eligible for disqualification under Rule 1.1.

[John Kavanaugh]

The big deal is that it is mandatory.

[Mike Sweeney]

The big deal is that it is mandatory.

John,


Did your company mandate vaccines?

[John Kavanaugh]

Absolutely not.

[Mike Sweeney]

Absolutely not.

Thank you John. I am sincerely happy to hear that. I am in JAX next week, but holidays and such prevent a trip to Orlando. At some point I will be back for new-World Woods.


Merry Christmas.


PS - I do use the most minimalist watch and try to stay off the phone:

[Erik J. Barzeski]

You mustn't be serious...
If you believe that young folks (on the average) simply enter the score and place the phone back in their bag

It's not a "belief." I've seen it. Most do exactly that the majority of the time. They're playing golf, and in competitions with live scoring, they tend to be competitive golfers… so they care about the golf they're playing. They're not just farting around on their phones for the heck of it.

And the few who "engage in other apps" would have done so whether they had a phone out to enter two or three scores or not. You can tell this because… often only one or two people in a group do live scoring, and yet sometimes another not doing live scoring will — gasp! — get out their phone and check some things quickly when they have some downtime.

Asking kids to avoid their phones for five hours, while theoretically "possible," is a bit silly. It reeks of "old men shaking their first at technology." They grew up differently than you did (or even I did).

However- as I said before- that should be on the tournament administrators and NOT THE PLAYER, as it takes away from the SOUL of the game.

No, it doesn't.

You have to stop and write down your score in one way or another, right? On a card or on your phone? On a phone, it's a better experience, it helps, it solves problems. In the HJGT events, for example, it will alert you if you entered a different score for yourself than your marker entered for you, letting you resolve the issue right there on the course instead of when you get to the scoring table three hours later or whatever.

So, again, you have to stop and write down your score one way or another. I think you're being a luddite here and going WAY too far in saying it takes away from the "soul of the game" to say you can't tap on a phone for ten seconds instead of scribbling on a paper card.

Competitive rounds are for the PLAYER-  not the parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, coach, fan, etc - perhaps this where the disconnect lies.

And the player has to write the scores down one way or another. Right? This way just has a bunch of upside to almost everyone: tournament organizers, spectators (both on-site and off-), and players.

Used the Golf Genius app for 36 holes at a Fried Egg event earlier this year.  It maybe takes 10 seconds for each hole to put in the scores, pretty much no different than writing the scores down on a scorecard.  I don't see what the big fuss is about.

Exactly.

[John Kavanaugh]

Erik,


When are you going to tell your students that this app clearly states that it is not to be used by children under 13. You should at least get a signed waiver from the parents.


How is Tick Toc safe and this isn’t?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

When are you going to tell your students that this app clearly states that it is not to be used by children under 13. You should at least get a signed waiver from the parents.

There are more apps out there than Golf Genius, genius.

Also, you're not reading that correctly. It says "We do not knowingly collect or maintain PII from any Person under the age of thirteen. No parts of the Service are directed to or designed to attract anyone under the age of thirteen."

So, they don't "knowingly collect or maintain PII" from 10-year-olds. Nor did they create the app to "attract" 10-year-olds.

It does not say "this app is not to be used by children under 13."

P.S. Most of my students playing competitive golfer are 13+.

[John Kavanaugh]

That is exactly what it says. Thanks.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

That is exactly what it says. Thanks.

It does not say "this app is not to be used by children under the age of 13." It simply says they don't knowingly track children, and the app isn't targeting children.

And I suspect you know this.

[John Kavanaugh]

Erik,


Yes again. Why don’t they know?

[Mike Sweeney]

And I suspect you know this.

Erik,


Whatever evil lurks under John's keyboard, he is in fact a superior government contractor who understands and knows how to manipulate the nuance of words in boilerplate better than most anyone I know.


That is not something I personally want to be good at, but I do have the ability to recognize John's talent for it. If John sees some spooky language about using data on kids, my guess is, he is probably right.


I am a fan of Edward Snowden too, but I don't see John moving to not-very-good golf Russia, so his secrets will probably remain secret:

[John Kavanaugh]

Remember back when we were young and thought these internet miracles that made our life better were free? Can’t wait to blow up on a couple of short par 4’s and have a wedge ad sent to my phone.

[Charlie Goerges]

It means they are collecting data on everyone who uses it, but the app is marked as 13+ or something like that. So if every parent has carefully set up their kids' phone settings, the kid won't be able to download it without parents permission. It's just like every other app. It's the problem of our age with privacy. If you want your kid to have privacy, they can't have a phone.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

That is not something I personally want to be good at, but I do have the ability to recognize John's talent for it. If John sees some spooky language about using data on kids, my guess is, he is probably right.

The language plainly does not say "do not use this app if you are under 13." It's just the same COPPA stuff that even I have had to deal with owning a forum, and why YouTube makes you check a box if your content is geared towards kids.

It means they are collecting data on everyone who uses it, but the app is marked as 13+ or something like that. So if every parent has carefully set up their kids' phone settings, the kid won't be able to download it without parents permission. It's just like every other app. It's the problem of our age with privacy. If you want your kid to have privacy, they can't have a phone.

That's not true either: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/golf-genius/id555651262. It's marked there as "4+" for ages 4 and up. And there are also more apps out there than the Golf Genius one.

Regardless, phone apps offer a number of benefits to many involved, and have limited downsides. Especially since kids are gonna have their phones on them anyway, and if you're an adult who wants to "escape" for awhile, just put your phone in DND mode. Then you can even put your wife or whomever on a setting that lets them reach you and "break through" the DND mode.

[Charlie Goerges]

Noted Erik. My point was that if your kid has a phone, this app (or similar apps) is the least of your worries. There might be real reasons you might not want to use a golf app, but teenage privacy is about number 1000 on the list.


I understand Luddism perfectly well. I could buy a power planer for what some handplanes cost, but I use the handplanes because I like them better (not to mention less noise and less chance of losing a finger). Some jobs will take me three times as long and that's a tradeoff I'll make. But be honest about your reasons. I don't particularly care for the app, but any scramble I've played in, there was always someone in the group willing to do the entry.