[Bernie Bell]

Trolling headline but interesting article.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/golf-might-not-survive-the-21st-century-thanks-to-climate-change

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for sharing.
Golfs image isn’t what it could/should be. Too much lush and green on TV and in photos etc isn’t helping irrespective of any good deeds and work being done behind the scenes.
8 billion people in the World these days. 100 yrs ago it was about 2 billion. Worth considering this in relation to golfs existing footprint and whether moving forward golfs footprint really ought to be smaller.
Atb

[Charlie Goerges]

I can't help feeling that the game/community of golf needs to be taking a far more radical approach to its environmental impact, especially water. I feel like we're going to pay for it long term if we don't. All we seem to do is point out the worse offenders and say at least we're not them! I have a sinking feeling that approach will not stand us in good stead when the hard decisions start needing to be made.




I'd love to hear some truly radical ideas if anyone has them.

[Kalen Braley]

This is a pretty good summation of what's going on in the West, safe to say its not encouraging. A lot of similarities to what i've been seeing in Utah with not only no will to reign in growth, but Southern Utah wants to build a new pipeline to the Colorado to further tap an already over-drawn river.  Its bonkers.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona-rio-verde-foothills-scottsdale-water-hauling-access/

[Charlie Goerges]

If we had to cut water usage by the game of golf worldwide by 50% how should we go about it?


I mean, we could close about half the courses in the world using a Thanos-like snap. (actually this might be essentially what ends up happening if we do nothing more than we currently are)


How about we use new cultivars which allow a nice fairway surface at 2-3x the current height of cut for fairways and greens rolling 5? I don't know, I'm curious how it could be done.

[Dan_Callahan]

I have a son who is graduating from college this spring as a bio major with an environmental studies minor. He is considering law school, and I gave him a piece of advice someone gave me 25 years ago that I chose to ignore when I was heading to law school: study water rights law.

[V_Halyard]

The closer is tasty.


"“The bigger question isn’t whether golf belongs in Phoenix,” he said. “The bigger question is whether Phoenix belongs there.”

[John Kavanaugh]

Eliminate overseeding. Please.

[Charlie Goerges]

The closer is tasty.


"“The bigger question isn’t whether golf belongs in Phoenix,” he said. “The bigger question is whether Phoenix belongs there.”

It's a fair enough question to ask, but it's moot now. It is there. The government will undertake insane water projects before it ever considers depopulating the country's fifth-biggest city. Golf's place is far less assured, so I'm still wondering what sufficiently radical ideas people have to help ensure it's survival in these places.

[Thomas Dai]

In general and in some parts of the World in particular golfs footprint is excessive. Golf uses too much space. There is also the standards and expectations of course conditioning in relation to where golf is played to consider but let’s leave that aspect aside for just now.
The quickest way for golf to have a smaller footprint is to rollback the ball.
This will permit the game to continue in essentially the same way as at present but using less land, less water and less other inputs.
The ball manufacturers mightn’t like it (so bloody what!) but the future of a game that provides so much enjoyment, entertainment, social and health benefits, employment etc to so many people shouldn’t be adversely impacted by the selfishness of the manufacturers.
The game is more important than the manufacturers.
Atb

[Charlie Goerges]

In general and in some parts of the World in particular golfs footprint is excessive. Golf uses too much space. There is also the standards and expectations of course conditioning in relation to where golf is played to consider but let’s leave that aspect aside for just now.
The quickest way for golf to have a smaller footprint is to rollback the ball.
This will permit the game to continue in essentially the same way as at present but using less land, less water and less other inputs.
The ball manufacturers mightn’t like it (so bloody what!) but the future of a game that provides so much enjoyment, entertainment, social and health benefits, employment etc to so many people shouldn’t be adversely impacted by the selfishness of the manufacturers.
The game is more important than the manufacturers.
Atb

I agree it's a good idea, but you'll have to explain the process better. As far as I can see, rolling the ball back only enables a smaller footprint. Additionally, I'm sceptical at how much smaller the footprint will be. I'm not dismissing the idea, I'm just asking for more information.

[Mike_Young]

golf = 2 million acres in USA    agriculture= 900 million acres in USA       Golf and water sells papers ...

[astavrides]

This (a link from the original post's link) was a pretty interesting report.
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/08/01/arizona-golf-courses-more-water-than-allotted/

[John Emerson]

Most ppl here are well aware of my feelings on the future if golf and water and courses being built in deserts. I have what many would call a “doom and gloom” outlook on golf. I love the turfgrass and golf industry with all my heart, but many decisions were made long ago without the thought of the future consequences.


Water development in the west (a desert), which lead to city development (Phoenix et al) and later golf development, is perceived by many as the greatest achievement in American history. The trend in water shortages, increased temperatures and decreased rainfall, historical ecology of deserts, and population growth in these states suggest that water development in deserts may be Americas biggest folly.


Golf, imho is in big trouble. We may not see it any any of our lifetimes, but inevitably it will be bankrupt in desert climates.


Idk the answer to stop the bleeding other than quit building golf courses in deserts. It is a very complex issue that will require far more than one solution. No more overseeding is a good first step, but that’s honestly just just a band aid on top of a band aid.


This is not sustainable anyway you may want to frame it. When the rubber meets the road and hard decisions need to made, golf is first on the chopping block. Courses east of the Miss River look to be free and clear at the moment, but moving west is another story.

[Charlie Goerges]

Golf, imho is in big trouble...

Thanks for responding. Lots of points worth talking about, it's hard to decide where to start.


First thing I'm curious about is whether there is any level of reduction in water usage that could make golf reasonably sustainable in the desert? Even if conditions would be totally foreign to the current crop of golfers.


Second would be the same question, but for a place like southern California (and beyond that, any other quite dry areas).


I want to get past the bandaid on a bandaid stuff. I'm curious especially with conditioning/setup. If the standard for fairway HOC was 1"+ or so and an analogous change to greens, could it make a difference, either in the desert or other slightly less dry areas? I am just trying to get an idea of the attitude adjustment needed among golfers. I don't have any knowledge, just a creeping suspicion that golf will get hit hard by this. Hopefully this stuff makes sense.

[Adam Lawrence]

I can't help feeling that the game/community of golf needs to be taking a far more radical approach to its environmental impact, especially water. I feel like we're going to pay for it long term if we don't. All we seem to do is point out the worse offenders and say at least we're not them! I have a sinking feeling that approach will not stand us in good stead when the hard decisions start needing to be made.

Yes, quite. "We aren't as bad as agriculture" is NOT a winning argument for golf. Food is essential, golf isn't.

[Thomas Dai]

I agree it's a good idea, but you'll have to explain the process better. As far as I can see, rolling the ball back only enables a smaller footprint. Additionally, I'm sceptical at how much smaller the footprint will be. I'm not dismissing the idea, I'm just asking for more information.

You’ve got to start somewhere and rolling back the ball to achieve a smaller or much smaller golf footprint would be a simple way to start. Simple that is if the R&A/USGA/ball manufacturers could be convinced or pressurised into doing their bit. Not easy admittedly but if the alternative is no or less golf.
Others methods could be introduced or introduced as and when and if necessary but in particular for water related aspects, remembering that golf is an international game and that all sorts of national governments and regional authorities and numerous other bodies and organisations all with vested interests and priorities and under various political pressures would be involved, would likely be far more complex to introduce in comparison to rolling back the ball. Hell, the ball manufacturers should still sell the same number of balls irrespective of a rollback coz players loose so damn many!
Atb

[astavrides]

Are there any courses in the Phoenix/Tucson area that don't overseed, or do so in a more minimal way?
If so, I'll play them if possible and tell the management that I'm supporting them because of their overseed policy.

[astavrides]

First thing I'm curious about is whether there is any level of reduction in water usage that could make golf reasonably sustainable in the desert? Even if conditions would be totally foreign to the current crop of golfers.


Second would be the same question, but for a place like southern California (and beyond that, any other quite dry areas).

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/mesa/no-grass-valley-golf-course-offers-unique-challenge
https://www.pga.com/archive/news/golf-buzz/what-its-play-golf-without-grass


There was a thread here not that long ago about grassless courses in the Middle East. I can't find it. IIRC, most of the posters on that thread said they would take a hard pass at courses like that.

[Charlie Goerges]

First thing I'm curious about is whether there is any level of reduction in water usage that could make golf reasonably sustainable in the desert? Even if conditions would be totally foreign to the current crop of golfers.


Second would be the same question, but for a place like southern California (and beyond that, any other quite dry areas).

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/mesa/no-grass-valley-golf-course-offers-unique-challenge
https://www.pga.com/archive/news/golf-buzz/what-its-play-golf-without-grass


There was a thread here not that long ago about grassless courses in the Middle East. I can't find it. IIRC, most of the posters on that thread said they would take a hard pass at courses like that.

I'd probably take a pass on a grassless course as well. What I'm trying to determine is what can be done short of that. What about a pretty radical adjustment to conditioning? Would you accept fairways that were more like what is currently a first cut of rough? Certainly there are specific cultivars that wouldn't work at that length, but changes could be made there as well. Or vastly slower greens or any number of things I'm not thinking of.


It may be that there is no way to save golf in a desert long-term, but there are plenty of places that are dry, short of actual desert where golf can be saved (like southern California) or anywhere with frequent drought-like conditions. Like I said, it feels like we aren't taking the possibility seriously when we really should be.

[Buck Wolter]

Small Modular Nuclear Reactor (SMR) desalination would solve most, if not all the global water issues. 1,500 globally at $1B each would solve our global water issues by desalinating 500 trillion gallons of seawater/year (though we might drain the oceans).  Technology does not standstill.


Do you really use water or are you just borrowing it? Google says that there is a finite amount of water on earth that does not change.

[Tom_Doak]

Eliminate overseeding. Please.

Seconded.  That would be a great start.  But those people with $$$ in Arizona aren't "down with brown".

[Tom_Doak]

Are there any courses in the Phoenix/Tucson area that don't overseed, or do so in a more minimal way?
If so, I'll play them if possible and tell the management that I'm supporting them because of their overseed policy.

Desert Forest used to be conscientious objectors on that score.  [Or maybe they just didn't have enough water?]

[Tom_Doak]

There was a thread here not that long ago about grassless courses in the Middle East. I can't find it. IIRC, most of the posters on that thread said they would take a hard pass at courses like that.

I played a bunch of courses in Asia where the fairways were unirrigated, and the turf was spotty depending on the season.  The golf was still fun, but you wouldn't pay a lot of money for it.  That's why no one considers the solution; all of those golf courses spent $2.5m on an irrigation system and the economics are all predicated on keeping the hamster wheel spinning.

[Peter Flory]

Mid Pines needs to stop with it.  You'd think that they would follow #2's lead on that. 

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