Pet hates in course routings

[Ben Stephens]

- balanced nines
- par 72
- 4 par 5's
- 4 par 3's
- par 3's playing in totally different directions


All of the above together where the architect has obviously looked to design to standard. Bloody paint by numbers, bah humbug to that.

Niall


ps. what this site needs is a pissed off Santa Claus emoji

I suppose Augusta is out of the equation Niall

[Kalen Braley]

Regarding direction of the par 3's, the design merits should quite considerably trump that compass pet peeve.


One fine example is Myopia Hunt. They have just 3 one-shotters (par 73):
~230 yards, slightly uphill with an open front and 2-tiered green
~105 yards with a super narrow green and frightening bunkers everywhere
~175 yards, blind landing area whose green sits in a dell and runs slightly away from the player.


I really couldn't care less if they're all in one wind direction or not. It seems there's more than enough ways around that where, in the hands of a fine architect, I wouldn't notice or mind.

Max,

You can certainly put put me in this camp.  I'd much rather play 3 interesting and distinctly diverse par 3s that all point in the same direction over 3 ho-hum non-descript holes that all basically require the same shot...

[Sean_A]

Regarding direction of the par 3's, the design merits should quite considerably trump that compass pet peeve.


One fine example is Myopia Hunt. They have just 3 one-shotters (par 73):
~230 yards, slightly uphill with an open front and 2-tiered green
~105 yards with a super narrow green and frightening bunkers everywhere
~175 yards, blind landing area whose green sits in a dell and runs slightly away from the player.


I really couldn't care less if they're all in one wind direction or not. It seems there's more than enough ways around that where, in the hands of a fine architect, I wouldn't notice or mind.

Max,

You can certainly put put me in this camp.  I'd much rather play 3 interesting and distinctly diverse par 3s that all point in the same direction over 3 ho-hum non-descript holes that all basically require the same shot...

Is this something to think about?

People are giving Ben shit, but ideally he is right. The problem is everything can't be ideal except in Ben's mind 😎.

Ciao

[Robin_Hiseman]

A late change to the routing (root-ing) gave us three par 3's in the same direction at JCB. I was aware of it when I made the decision and didn't lose a second of sleep over it. They're good holes and suit the terrain. I don't think anybody else has noticed...not even Ben!


Another layout decision I made required me to design parallel par 4's in the same direction (2 and 4), which is a feature I really don't like. I got around it by making them as visually distinct from one another as possible, which has worked really well. I'd be surprised if anybody has picked up on this layout quirk. Would try to avoid it though. It took a lot of effort to disguise.

[James Reader]

Even having played JCB 6 or 7 times, I certainly hadn’t noticed that 3 of the par 3s are in the same direction.  In fact, even now you’ve told me it doesn’t feel that can be right.  I assume it must be 9, 14 and 17 but I’d have confidently said that wasn’t the case until 5 minutes ago!

[Sean_A]

A late change to the routing (root-ing) gave us three par 3's in the same direction at JCB. I was aware of it when I made the decision and didn't lose a second of sleep over it. They're good holes and suit the terrain. I don't think anybody else has noticed...not even Ben!


Another layout decision I made required me to design parallel par 4's in the same direction (2 and 4), which is a feature I really don't like. I got around it by making them as visually distinct from one another as possible, which has worked really well. I'd be surprised if anybody has picked up on this layout quirk. Would try to avoid it though. It took a lot of effort to disguise.

I recall asking you on the 3rd if the hole loops around to make 4 adjacent to 2. Didn't you give me a wry smile?

Ciao

[James Boon]

I suppose my main pet hate is anywhere that artificial internal out of bounds is needed to either make the hole tougher, steer you away from something for safety, or stop you playing down another hole (that last one, that's the one I really find annoying). The other one that annoys me is the long green to tee walk, but I can see why it happens sometimes so its mainly where you are walking across land that would make an interesting par 3, and it seems a missed opportunity not to be playing the land and just walking it.


Most of the rest of the things mentioned by others here, I can take in moderation, or if its hidden by a well designed or interesting hole to distract me from such routing nonsense? After all, an imperfect hole, as part of an imperfect routing is always going to be an issue. But a good or even great hole as part of an imperfect routing will (or should anyway) go unnoticed by anyone playing the hole...

As for this par 3s in different directions business (or should I say nonsense, sorry Ben  ?)... the first time I came across it being mentioned was a reference to it at Brora as something Braid liked to do. I have to admit, it was for a while something I'd look out for when looking at routing plans and aerials, but not anymore. I assume it was mainly focusing on playing them all in different wind conditions but that discounts a whole load of other ways the hole plays, not just the wind. I've played the 6th at Brora with the same club I've played the 13th when the wind is coming off the sea, so sure they play in different directions, but it didnt create as much variety that day as you'd have thought from just looking at a compass?

I started randomly picking clubs to see how many par 3s go in the same direction, and realised Brancaster has 3 going roughly east to west (6 (hang on, that's another pet hate walking to that tee across the 7th fariway!), 10 and 14), and Rye has 4, yes FOUR, going roughly west to east (2, 7, 14 and 17) and I'd never noticed it before on either of those, so I stopped looking for others!


Cheers,


James

[Kevin Pallier]

Hate is a strong word but dislikes include:

Trees overused in fairways as hazards
The lack of a good shortish P3 / P4 / P5
Holes that are continually bunkered on both sides of the fairway

[Adrian_Stiff]

I don't think par 3 holes in the same direction make any difference as long as the holes look different.


Elevation change is probably far more important for a set of par 3 holes.


I think if the golfer hits different clubs at the set that is a good consideration.


Still NO RULES. Let the land decide what is best and if 4 par 3 holes mean one on one nine and three on the other..so what.

[Ben Stephens]

Regarding direction of the par 3's, the design merits should quite considerably trump that compass pet peeve.


One fine example is Myopia Hunt. They have just 3 one-shotters (par 73):
~230 yards, slightly uphill with an open front and 2-tiered green
~105 yards with a super narrow green and frightening bunkers everywhere
~175 yards, blind landing area whose green sits in a dell and runs slightly away from the player.


I really couldn't care less if they're all in one wind direction or not. It seems there's more than enough ways around that where, in the hands of a fine architect, I wouldn't notice or mind.

Max,

You can certainly put put me in this camp.  I'd much rather play 3 interesting and distinctly diverse par 3s that all point in the same direction over 3 ho-hum non-descript holes that all basically require the same shot...

Is this something to think about?

People are giving Ben shit, but ideally he is right. The problem is everything can't be ideal except in Ben's mind 😎.

Ciao

Hi Sean,




My tutor when i did my A-levels (18 yr old exams in England) he said you will never get the perfect design there will always be flaws and its about producing the best design possible.


At university that comment stuck to my mind and really helped with crits. I once experimented too much on one house project and a German tutor ribbed it I realised after he was mostly right and learned from it. Nobody is perfect.


I now have thick skin from life experience. Even members at my local club question my design work - especially one hole and I call it 'Marmite'



Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

A late change to the routing (root-ing) gave us three par 3's in the same direction at JCB. I was aware of it when I made the decision and didn't lose a second of sleep over it. They're good holes and suit the terrain. I don't think anybody else has noticed...not even Ben!


Another layout decision I made required me to design parallel par 4's in the same direction (2 and 4), which is a feature I really don't like. I got around it by making them as visually distinct from one another as possible, which has worked really well. I'd be surprised if anybody has picked up on this layout quirk. Would try to avoid it though. It took a lot of effort to disguise.

Robin


I knew that you had 3 par 3's in a similar direction (not the same compass point which is a different matter ) just didn't bring it up. You have masked it well, they are all 3 different holes and you forget the direction.

Also 2, 3 and 4 are almost  up and down holes - one of Ally's pet peeves. Again like the par 3s you made it feel different and less obvious.

2 and 4 are parallel holes in same direction that is one of Mayday pet peeves I don't mind them as long as it fits with the routing well.

You can't please everyone. still JCB is one of the strongest modern courses we have in the UK


Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

I suppose my main pet hate is anywhere that artificial internal out of bounds is needed to either make the hole tougher, steer you away from something for safety, or stop you playing down another hole (that last one, that's the one I really find annoying). The other one that annoys me is the long green to tee walk, but I can see why it happens sometimes so its mainly where you are walking across land that would make an interesting par 3, and it seems a missed opportunity not to be playing the land and just walking it.


Most of the rest of the things mentioned by others here, I can take in moderation, or if its hidden by a well designed or interesting hole to distract me from such routing nonsense? After all, an imperfect hole, as part of an imperfect routing is always going to be an issue. But a good or even great hole as part of an imperfect routing will (or should anyway) go unnoticed by anyone playing the hole...

As for this par 3s in different directions business (or should I say nonsense, sorry Ben  ?)... the first time I came across it being mentioned was a reference to it at Brora as something Braid liked to do. I have to admit, it was for a while something I'd look out for when looking at routing plans and aerials, but not anymore. I assume it was mainly focusing on playing them all in different wind conditions but that discounts a whole load of other ways the hole plays, not just the wind. I've played the 6th at Brora with the same club I've played the 13th when the wind is coming off the sea, so sure they play in different directions, but it didnt create as much variety that day as you'd have thought from just looking at a compass?

I started randomly picking clubs to see how many par 3s go in the same direction, and realised Brancaster has 3 going roughly east to west (6 (hang on, that's another pet hate walking to that tee across the 7th fariway!), 10 and 14), and Rye has 4, yes FOUR, going roughly west to east (2, 7, 14 and 17) and I'd never noticed it before on either of those, so I stopped looking for others!


Cheers,


James

Boony,


Fair dinkum you have your views I have mine - I don't mind internal OOB if it is historical or for safety reasons on a quality course like Hoylake - it spices things up. Nor the walk cross the 7th fairway at Brancaster where else do you have this - its quirky and you leave your bag on the 7th fairway without having to carry it up the 6th and then down the 7th.


bet you can remember Killeen Castle boy almost every green to next tee was a long walk!


Its becoming more and more common that a number of par 3s are in a similar direction on a number of courses that we on GCA haven't really noticed and is becoming more blindingly obvious now!!.


I am sure some people pet peeve is having a main access road to clubhouse and out close by two holes with one green by it interfering with play. Again I don't mind that its a quirk having to stop cars and playing the shot over the road 


Cheers
Ben

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think it’s important to remember that the spirit of this thread was a very individual pet hate. It doesn’t even need to be rational.


All I know is that I try to avoid up, down, up in routings more than I try to avoid many of the other things mentioned here. If there’s an area of a site that is narrow and clearly needs three holes side by side, I will either try and break up one end with a perpendicular par-3 or I will try and get out of that area to return in the future (breaking up where the holes play in the routing).


But maybe that has knock-on effects that aren’t worth the compromise. So I’m always open to absolutely anything so long as it produces the best course. Plus up-down-up can still work extremely well on the right land with the right holes. Tom has proven that on more than one occasion.

[Niall C]

Still NO RULES. Let the land decide what is best and if 4 par 3 holes mean one on one nine and three on the other..so what.

Adrian


Spot on. I think that in a round about way that was what I was trying to say.


Niall

[Ben Stephens]

Still NO RULES. Let the land decide what is best and if 4 par 3 holes mean one on one nine and three on the other..so what.

Adrian


Spot on. I think that in a round about way that was what I was trying to say.


Niall

Lytham comes to mind and it has 2 par 5s in a row on the front nine (I think one is a par 4 in the Open)

[Thomas Dai]

Posters herein generally seem to quite like quirk. Isn’t there quirk in routing too?
Atb

[James Boon]

Boony,


Fair dinkum you have your views I have mine - I don't mind internal OOB if it is historical or for safety reasons on a quality course like Hoylake - it spices things up. Nor the walk cross the 7th fairway at Brancaster where else do you have this - its quirky and you leave your bag on the 7th fairway without having to carry it up the 6th and then down the 7th.


bet you can remember Killeen Castle boy almost every green to next tee was a long walk!


Its becoming more and more common that a number of par 3s are in a similar direction on a number of courses that we on GCA haven't really noticed and is becoming more blindingly obvious now!!.


I am sure some people pet peeve is having a main access road to clubhouse and out close by two holes with one green by it interfering with play. Again I don't mind that its a quirk having to stop cars and playing the shot over the road 


Cheers
Ben

Thanks Ben,


Indeed, one persons pet peeve is another persons beloved quirk!


Cheers,


James

[Tom_Doak]

I know it's already been covered but I hate walkbacks.  One is OK, but beyond that it really gets annoying.
And I hate long transitions from green to tee in general.  That's why I think the transition from the 12th green
to the 13th tee at Golspie is one of the highlights of golf in the Highlands.  You never leave the same footprint
and it's all of five yards.

If you only have one walk-back then you have seventeen long walks to the member tees.  Unless you throw out the back tees and just go with 6200 yards or whatever, which is one part of the concept for Sedge Valley.

[Sean_A]

I know it's already been covered but I hate walkbacks.  One is OK, but beyond that it really gets annoying.
And I hate long transitions from green to tee in general.  That's why I think the transition from the 12th green
to the 13th tee at Golspie is one of the highlights of golf in the Highlands.  You never leave the same footprint
and it's all of five yards.

If you only have one walk-back then you have seventeen long walks to the member tees.  Unless you throw out the back tees and just go with 6200 yards or whatever, which is one part of the concept for Sedge Valley.

I don't understand the 17 long walks comment. If a course is designed for green to tee transitions and meant to be playable for most it will be fairly short with little down time on uneconomic walks. It's the idea of mega tees which messes with smooth transitions.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

You will always have some walk backs for the long tees if you want to prioritise shortest walks for the majority of people. In an ideal world, they are pretty unnoticeable.


But one contradiction that sometimes comes with interesting topography is the difficulty in getting the next tee right beside the preceding green.

[Sean_A]

You will always have some walk backs for the long tees if you want to prioritise shortest walks for the majority of people. In an ideal world, they are pretty unnoticeable.


But one contradiction that sometimes comes with interesting topography is the difficulty in getting the next tee right beside the preceding green.

Ally

The idea I am touting is no back tees except for a small handful if there is an interesting carry/angle. The total yardage difference between the tee set next to greens and walk back tees would all on a handful of holes rather than a steady drip of back tees just to add yardage. Same for the difference between the tee set near the green and forward tees. I recall thinking Dormie Club could set up very well this way. No need for mega tees. Three sets with one set working for all three on probably half the holes. The 4th at St Pat's is a decent example. But generally, St Pat's is not a good example because the holes are often run ons. You often have to walk past back tees to reach forward tees. The longer green to tee walks are disguised as a back tee is often reached fairly quickly.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,


You are talking about a golf course that suits you but not some others. Assuming most people are happy playing in around 6,000 to 6,400 yards, it makes sense to try and get those tees as close as possible to the previous green where practical. If you don’t accept a walk back or two, that is the total length of your course. Which is Ok but it is going to turn off a %ge of low handicap golfers. So as long as the owner accepts that.


You referenced the 4th at St Pats which most certainly classifies as a walk back for the 6,900 set of tees. But crucially, Tom has the most used two sets relatively near the 3rd green. Putting tees right next to greens is very difficult in that landscape. Even more so in a place like Carne.


With walk forwards (which I know you are also talking about), the same applies. But I also know you are referencing modern monsters here with 5 sets of tees and huge gapping. Where it becomes frustrating is where the walks have been built in to a modern course on tame land that effectively has been scaled up / stretched out to try and be all things to all people but is really just focusing on the elite golfers.


I think it is time we do another Armchair Architecture competition. I have a real site in mind. I look forward to your participation.


EDIT: Reading your post again, I see you are talking about back tees on some but not all holes. I am on board with that kind of idea. In fact, it is pretty consistent with my general approach.

[Tom_Doak]

I used to do that early in my career - just build 4-6 back tees that were too tough for me as a 6-handicap, and put the two markers together on the other holes.  (Crystal Downs is a great example of this: the only real back tees are at holes 3, 6, 13, and 18.)


But, as Ally says, most developers want more than 6500 yards, even if they wind up building a full set of tees that almost no one uses.

[Thomas Dai]

You referenced the 4th at St Pats which most certainly classifies as a walk back for the 6,900 set of tees. But crucially, Tom has the most used two sets relatively near the 3rd green. Putting tees right next to greens is very difficult in that landscape. Even more so in a place like Carne.

I recall walking a long way back and considerably upwards to a pretty much invisible very far back tee on the 4th at StP. Great view and spot for photos, hell of a tee shot from there into the prevailing wind (or maybe flip a wedge over the fence onto the 14th of the OTM course!). I did notice a few other way back tees too some pretty small and wondered how they were found and about their construction given the incredibly soft and spongy dunes that would had to been traversed finding and building them. I wonder how often they are used and how much longer a round takes when they are used?
Atb

[Wade Whitehead]

There seem to be at least FOUR separate threads going on here:

• Routings
• Architecture/Design
• Maintenance Meld
• Setup

I bring this up because already-built courses have virtually no control over 1 and 2, have a good amount of control over 3, and almost total control over 4.

WW