Crossover holes in the routing

[Richard Hetzel]

I played a round a Fort Mitchell CC in Northern KY a few years back. It has a crossover hole, I didn't mind it too much. I'll look for the pics.







I played a little executive course on the Westside of Cincinnati called Fernbank GC. It crosses over all over the place, so much so that either I thought I would be killed, or I would kill someone else there. I thought the place would be empty, but it was packed. So, it must not bother regulars at all. I'm not gonna lie, this little course was fun.





I think if you have the room, a crossover hole can be accomplished quite well.

[Kalen Braley]

Rich,

That 2nd diagram just may be the closest golf equivalent to figure 8 racing.

And that 1st hole looks to be an absolute gauntlet with 5 cross overs... 

[Richard Hetzel]

Rich,

That 2nd diagram just may be the closest golf equivalent to figure 8 racing.

And that 1st hole looks to be an absolute gauntlet with 5 cross overs... 

It was. Conditions aside, it was fun, small greens helped with the challenge. On a side note, no one died that day.

[James Boon]

As with other features that we dont see much of these days like blind shots, I dont mind crossing holes, as it all adds to the character of a course, and harks back to the old layouts that did this. Its clearly safer on a course that isnt busy and if there arent any trees for people to suddenly appear from behind then all the better. I'd be more than happy to see one added to a modern course, but can understand why that might not be possible from a H&S point of view? I would also imagine a crossing pair of par 3s such as the two on the Eden at St Andrews is safer than longer holes crossing, as its more likley everyone is playing from the tee to the green and not some random part of the hole?

I recall Whittington Heath having a few examples, even if it was teeing off over the previous green, rather than a real crossover?


Clyde lists a few courses in the Highlands that have them, and I'd add Gairloch to that, which has them on 1/2, 5/8, 8/9. One of those, you walk off the 4th green, leave your bag, cross the 8th fairway to hit your tee shot on the 5th back across where you just came from. I dont know the history of the layout but suspect originally there wasnt a crossover here, but one was created to lengthen one of the holes.


However this got me thinking about crossover between holes and not as part of the holes, not playing shots just walking? For example at Brancaster where you walk off the 5th green, across the 7th fairway, to get to the 6th tee. The previously mentioned Erewash Valley here in Derbyshire has a similar example where after the crossing holes in the quarry, you have to walk over the 15th fairway to get to the 6th tee (golfers popping out from the trees ahead of you on 15 when you arent expecting it and they are in their own world means many a person has had to stand back from their tee shot!)


Perhaps these walkover holes, or crossovers out of sequence are more dangerous as the people playing the hole you cross wont always know who is playing, and therefore crossing, a hole several away from them in the routing?


Cheers,


James

[Sean_A]

As with other features that we dont see much of these days like blind shots, I dont mind crossing holes, as it all adds to the character of a course, and harks back to the old layouts that did this. Its clearly safer on a course that isnt busy and if there arent any trees for people to suddenly appear from behind then all the better. I'd be more than happy to see one added to a modern course, but can understand why that might not be possible from a H&S point of view? I would also imagine a crossing pair of par 3s such as the two on the Eden at St Andrews is safer than longer holes crossing, as its more likley everyone is playing from the tee to the green and not some random part of the hole?

I recall Whittington Heath having a few examples, even if it was teeing off over the previous green, rather than a real crossover?


Clyde lists a few courses in the Highlands that have them, and I'd add Gairloch to that, which has them on 1/2, 5/8, 8/9. One of those, you walk off the 4th green, leave your bag, cross the 8th fairway to hit your tee shot on the 5th back across where you just came from. I dont know the history of the layout but suspect originally there wasnt a crossover here, but one was created to lengthen one of the holes.


However this got me thinking about crossover between holes and not as part of the holes, not playing shots just walking? For example at Brancaster where you walk off the 5th green, across the 7th fairway, to get to the 6th tee. The previously mentioned Erewash Valley here in Derbyshire has a similar example where after the crossing holes in the quarry, you have to walk over the 15th fairway to get to the 6th tee (golfers popping out from the trees ahead of you on 15 when you arent expecting it and they are in their own world means many a person has had to stand back from their tee shot!)


Perhaps these walkover holes, or crossovers out of sequence are more dangerous as the people playing the hole you cross wont always know who is playing, and therefore crossing, a hole several away from them in the routing?


Cheers,


James

That Erewash example is dangerous because trees block views. Plus it's a pig walk to the tee...not good.

Ciao

[Clyde Johnson]

At Northwest GC in Donegal the 18th tee shot crosses the 17th fairway.
There was another crossover on the front(3 I think) before they built a new fairway and green for 3.

Talking about Donegal, how could I forget the original routing at Otway!?



That map doesn't quite convey how crazy the contour made this play...truly hard hat stuff!

[Sean_A]

At Northwest GC in Donegal the 18th tee shot crosses the 17th fairway.
There was another crossover on the front(3 I think) before they built a new fairway and green for 3.

Talking about Donegal, how could I forget the original routing at Otway!?



That map doesn't quite convey how crazy the contour made this play...truly hard hat stuff!

It's still pretty wild. I think only one cross over was eliminated, but a shared fairway was added. Pretty cool course.

Ciao

[Forrest Richardson]

We created a cross-over in Vegas 20 years ago. In a deep canyon, we routed a par-4 down from the tip of the end of the canyon (up above) — and then a par-3 across at 90-degrees to this, with a path around and behind the par-4 tees. It was magic! Never got built, but I've always loved the idea.

Claremont in CA has a few.

[Tom_Doak]

However this got me thinking about crossover between holes and not as part of the holes, not playing shots just walking? For example at Brancaster where you walk off the 5th green, across the 7th fairway, to get to the 6th tee. The previously mentioned Erewash Valley here in Derbyshire has a similar example where after the crossing holes in the quarry, you have to walk over the 15th fairway to get to the 6th tee (golfers popping out from the trees ahead of you on 15 when you arent expecting it and they are in their own world means many a person has had to stand back from their tee shot!)

James:


That switchback at Brancaster [like Mercury going into retrograde] is one of the weirdest ones I know.  I don't know the full history of the layout, but I know that Macdonald referred to the first short hole [now the 4th] as the 5th, so I presume that two of the opening holes were combined, and the 6th was added to make up the difference [and add 150 yards to the 7th].  So the walkover got them about 350 yards on the total length!


I wonder if there was an architect involved with that or whether it was just some enterprising person at the club.  Most architects would be afraid to suggest such a thing, or, indeed, ever come up with it because it's so far out of the box.

[Ben Stephens]

However this got me thinking about crossover between holes and not as part of the holes, not playing shots just walking? For example at Brancaster where you walk off the 5th green, across the 7th fairway, to get to the 6th tee. The previously mentioned Erewash Valley here in Derbyshire has a similar example where after the crossing holes in the quarry, you have to walk over the 15th fairway to get to the 6th tee (golfers popping out from the trees ahead of you on 15 when you arent expecting it and they are in their own world means many a person has had to stand back from their tee shot!)

James:


That switchback at Brancaster [like Mercury going into retrograde] is one of the weirdest ones I know.  I don't know the full history of the layout, but I know that Macdonald referred to the first short hole [now the 4th] as the 5th, so I presume that two of the opening holes were combined, and the 6th was added to make up the difference [and add 150 yards to the 7th].  So the walkover got them about 350 yards on the total length!


I wonder if there was an architect involved with that or whether it was just some enterprising person at the club.  Most architects would be afraid to suggest such a thing, or, indeed, ever come up with it because it's so far out of the box.

Joe McDonell - https://www.joemcdgolf.com/ is the best person i know he has done a bit of research on past layouts and old holes at Brancaster - the 10th believe it or not was once a par 4 from behind the 9th green to a green further up and slightly left of the current 10th green.

The current 6th hole is the newest hole on the course. There was another par 3 hole I am not sure where but Joe knows where it was.

[Sean_A]

However this got me thinking about crossover between holes and not as part of the holes, not playing shots just walking? For example at Brancaster where you walk off the 5th green, across the 7th fairway, to get to the 6th tee. The previously mentioned Erewash Valley here in Derbyshire has a similar example where after the crossing holes in the quarry, you have to walk over the 15th fairway to get to the 6th tee (golfers popping out from the trees ahead of you on 15 when you arent expecting it and they are in their own world means many a person has had to stand back from their tee shot!)

James:


That switchback at Brancaster [like Mercury going into retrograde] is one of the weirdest ones I know.  I don't know the full history of the layout, but I know that Macdonald referred to the first short hole [now the 4th] as the 5th, so I presume that two of the opening holes were combined, and the 6th was added to make up the difference [and add 150 yards to the 7th].  So the walkover got them about 350 yards on the total length!


I wonder if there was an architect involved with that or whether it was just some enterprising person at the club.  Most architects would be afraid to suggest such a thing, or, indeed, ever come up with it because it's so far out of the box.

Tom, I believe a short hole near the water rear and right of the current 3rd green was lost in a 1942 storm..then the 11th. This prompted the very awkward current 6th to built.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

However this got me thinking about crossover between holes and not as part of the holes, not playing shots just walking? For example at Brancaster where you walk off the 5th green, across the 7th fairway, to get to the 6th tee. The previously mentioned Erewash Valley here in Derbyshire has a similar example where after the crossing holes in the quarry, you have to walk over the 15th fairway to get to the 6th tee (golfers popping out from the trees ahead of you on 15 when you arent expecting it and they are in their own world means many a person has had to stand back from their tee shot!)

James:


That switchback at Brancaster [like Mercury going into retrograde] is one of the weirdest ones I know.  I don't know the full history of the layout, but I know that Macdonald referred to the first short hole [now the 4th] as the 5th, so I presume that two of the opening holes were combined, and the 6th was added to make up the difference [and add 150 yards to the 7th].  So the walkover got them about 350 yards on the total length!


I wonder if there was an architect involved with that or whether it was just some enterprising person at the club.  Most architects would be afraid to suggest such a thing, or, indeed, ever come up with it because it's so far out of the box.

I don't believe there was a professional architect involved in the early days at Brancaster. Interestingly, Harry Colt's sister Maude married Charles Neville-Rolfe; the Neville-Rolfe family owned the land on which the course was built. George Colt, Harry's elder brother, became a member of the club, but there is no trace of Harry doing the same, though he must have visited quite frequently.

[Kevin Pallier]

Greg Norman's design at the private Evans estate Cathedral Lodge Vic. Australia has one.


The 7th tee sits behind the 6th green. You actually have to hit directly over the green and down part of the 6th fairway to have a shot at the 7th green.


It works there because of the few golfing groups that would play the course daily.

[Jeff Schley]

Greg Norman's design at the private Evans estate Cathedral Lodge Vic. Australia has one.


The 7th tee sits behind the 6th green. You actually have to hit directly over the green and down part of the 6th fairway to have a shot at the 7th green.


It works there because of the few golfing groups that would play the course daily.

Kevin,
I don't recall that one in my only play there. Do you have any photos or layout?  I can't find any online.
thanks

[Colin Sheehan]

Here was one of the great cross over courses ever built: Greentree on Payne Whitney’s estate in Manhasset. After suggesting that Otto Kahn got more golf than he needed, Macdonald had this to say about an extremely efficient “nine hole” course: “When Payne Whitney proposed building an eighteen-hole golf course on his property at Manhasset there was plenty of room but the land was not adapted to it, and I persuaded him to build a nine-hole course and to build it on some twenty or thirty acres immediately back of his home. I grouped three classic holes in the centre of the land which had to be played to at different angles. In this way it was perfectly simple to get nine good holes on a small acreage. It could easily take care of ten or twelve men playing, and I doubt very much if there were ever more than that number golfing over his course. It was beautifully kept up and one had as many fine golfing shots as he could have had on any golf course.”
Here's a majority of that course from the 1930s.  https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lb8LvrwEByUZ5HqT8

And the scorecard from that era:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOtJHUTnJVmCu3U-qUELNw0QxbcxWJib-AuK5qpfvqJYxO_9PkHuDnv19XOzO3HXA/photo/AF1QipPeW6dESVG88XDCbfMdO7Rws13vLb5QLkHWqp5V?key=MUdpQXVENnhEY0xSU0ZBdXlkNEFWSFJqQktpOXRB


I remember reading Darwin describe Royal Isle of Wight as being so compact and full of cross overs he once called it a "cat's cradle" and I have been using that term for years now when describing one type of a possible short course. And no one has yet to be equally-nerdy enough to make the reference. Here's the original text. It always brings me so much joy to read anything by him:


The nine holes dodge in and out after the manner of a cat’s cradle, so that Bembridge has earned a reputation for being one of the most dangerous courses in the world, and it used to be said that all the local players expected to be hit once at least in the course of a year. To cry a brisk ‘fore’ is to absolve oneself from responsibility, and one may then let fly at any impeding player with a clear conscience. There is one particularly perilous spot, where the ball is apt to lie after a straight drive of moderate length on the way to the first hole. Here the player is in the midst of a veritable ring of death, since a hot fire may be opened upon him simultaneously from the seventh, eighth, and ninth tees, to say nothing of the first tee to his immediate rear. It is perhaps owing to this exciting characteristic of the course that that pleasant anachronism, the red coat, is still occasionally to be seen at Bembridge.

[Kevin Pallier]

Greg Norman's design at the private Evans estate Cathedral Lodge Vic. Australia has one.


The 7th tee sits behind the 6th green. You actually have to hit directly over the green and down part of the 6th fairway to have a shot at the 7th green.


It works there because of the few golfing groups that would play the course daily.

Kevin,
I don't recall that one in my only play there. Do you have any photos or layout?  I can't find any online.
thanks

Jeff


The 7th tee is a bit below where I tagged it

[Sean_A]

And yet probably a majority of examples cited on this thread are where back (often multiple) tees were added to challenge the longer player and/or accommodate technology. Fair and playable for whom? And no I really don’t want to turn this into a number of tees thread. But let’s be consistent: why are we okay with Ballybunion adding back tees as crossovers or Tom designing them for longer players but then frowning on them for players who cannot handle the distances (hand raised)?

Ira:


You are more likely to see a back tee with a crossover because
a). The back tees aren't used that frequently, and
b)  We assume players on the back tees have better sense about not hitting in a dangerous situation


My point with the forward tees was that they are more likely to sneak into the line of play from the hole that's hitting across them.

Tom,


Thanks. My off-thread post was a response to Sean who took your post about modern courses as evidence against multiple tees. On the courses I have played that you designed there indeed have been multiple tee options with Ballyneal being the epitome. Sean does not like forward tees or multiple tees. I was just pointing out that crossovers often are a result of adding multiple back tees including on golden age courses.

Ira

Ira

That isn't true. I am in favour of back or forward tees (depending on your PoV) when they make sense such as a carry or a great angle can be incorporated into the design. I am very much against length based mega tees where there is routinely enough space to build par 3s between the tees. It encourages cart golf (who wants to walk for minutes between each hole?), the concept that golf is fair and the bizarre notion of trying to make every approach shot between different levels of players the same distance. With some exceptions, the concept smacks me of codifying design. I can't get behind that.

Ciao