[Tom_Doak]

It's interesting that I did the routing for St. Patrick's [and for The National in Australia] more by walking around the property than by playing around on a topo map . . . we were years into the planning of St. Patrick's before I had a good topo.


When you are following your eyes, you tend to think even less about the direction of the par-3's.  Often, when I am working on a plan, I will think about the compass directions of the par-3 holes once I've got a routing I really like, and if they are very similar, I'll see if there is a good fix that doesn't cost me any of the really good holes.  But I would never trade off some really good holes for this "ideal" that only some people care about.


If Ben had built more golf courses I suspect he would not be so hung up on his rules.  Hopefully, in time, he will have more opportunities to see the trade-offs.

[Sean_A]

ST PAT'S TOUR CONT

For me, the heart of St Pat's is 9-12. Four holes which are difficult for one reason or another.


......

 Its a rare treat to be beaten over the head and enjoy it.

Agreed.  Could that be because it's just for 4 holes?

All four holes are outstanding.

Spangles

I think 4, 13, 14 & 16 are also difficult holes. Mind you, I didn't try the far forward tees whose total card yardage is 5900, more suitable for my length....6500 is definitely too long for me. However, I think it would spoil the walk a bit on 4, 9 and 12-14 to walk forward.  That said, we didn't have serious wind so I think in some conditions I would be compelled to give in and walk forward.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

It's interesting that I did the routing for St. Patrick's [and for The National in Australia] more by walking around the property than by playing around on a topo map . . . we were years into the planning of St. Patrick's before I had a good topo.


When you are following your eyes, you tend to think even less about the direction of the par-3's.  Often, when I am working on a plan, I will think about the compass directions of the par-3 holes once I've got a routing I really like, and if they are very similar, I'll see if there is a good fix that doesn't cost me any of the really good holes.  But I would never trade off some really good holes for this "ideal" that only some people care about.


If Ben had built more golf courses I suspect he would not be so hung up on his rules.  Hopefully, in time, he will have more opportunities to see the trade-offs.

To me lots of people seem to have misinterpreted that I have this as a set rule in my design work?? - for clarification I said was that if I saw a layout with par 3s in a similar direction it can be off putting for me in regards to playing a golf course that I haven't played before that's different.


The conversation and more information gathered over the last few weeks is that a number of famous courses do have 3 or more par 3s in a similar direction which i thought was weird. Myopia, NGLA and Pasatiempo. Even JCB!


Have to say that I am more flexible in regards to design work than other people think.


Tom is right we start with a routing plan and try to walk it on site a number of times. It works sometimes and other times it doesn't work an early routing plan of Rutland Water over 15 years ago that i got out of the archives a few months ago had more par 3s north on the plans by walking around the site it was better flipped over and that one downhill par 3 became a short uphill par 4 as the longer holes either side was better in the opposite direction. Also the downhill par 3 would have needed a raised green which would have been more costly.


I am working on a couple of routings for a new project at the moment - it does take time to make it work there's always pros and cons its making the right balance design wise.


Lets get back to St Pats! look forward to seeing more of Sean's photos and comments.

[Ben Stephens]

ST PAT'S TOUR CONT

For me, the heart of St Pat's is 9-12. Four holes which are difficult for one reason or another.


......

 Its a rare treat to be beaten over the head and enjoy it.

Agreed.  Could that be because it's just for 4 holes?

All four holes are outstanding.

Spangles

I think 4, 13, 14 & 16 are also difficult holes. Mind you, I didn't try the far forward tees whose total card yardage is 5900, more suitable for my length....6500 is definitely too long for me. However, it think it would spoil the walk a bit on 4, 9 and 12-14. That said, we didn't have serious wind so I think in some conditions I would be compelled to give in and walk forward.

Ciao

Sean,


As far as I can remember you were quite long off the tee. It has been a few years since we last played together. surprised to see you are more comfortable with 5900 than 6500?? would 6200-6300 be your ideal yardage.


One question was the fairways soft at St Pats that you didn't get as much run as you would on another links course. It does look very green in your photos.


Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

ST PAT'S TOUR CONT

For me, the heart of St Pat's is 9-12. Four holes which are difficult for one reason or another.


......

 Its a rare treat to be beaten over the head and enjoy it.

Agreed.  Could that be because it's just for 4 holes?

All four holes are outstanding.

Spangles

I think 4, 13, 14 & 16 are also difficult holes. Mind you, I didn't try the far forward tees whose total card yardage is 5900, more suitable for my length....6500 is definitely too long for me. However, it think it would spoil the walk a bit on 4, 9 and 12-14. That said, we didn't have serious wind so I think in some conditions I would be compelled to give in and walk forward.

Ciao

Sean,


As far as I can remember you were quite long off the tee. It has been a few years since we last played together. surprised to see you are more comfortable with 5900 than 6500?? would 6200-6300 be your ideal yardage.


One question was the fairways soft at St Pats that you didn't get as much run as you would on another links course. It does look very green in your photos.


Cheers
Ben

Ireland is the Emerald Isle for a reason .  I found the course slightly slow, but more than acceptably keen. On 9 I hit a running 6 iron about 50 yards to the hole without whacking it.

I was never long, most I could ever carry a drive was 250 and that was a loooong time ago. No, these days sub 6000 is best for me. My wrist never properly healed from years ago. It has cost me a ton of yardage and I play less than 50% rounds than previously. The recent US trip was a serious grind, but I did discover parkland golf is much easier on the wrist . That's why I have basically shifted my focus to playing more 9 holers and shorter, funkier courses. So far so good.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

ST PAT'S TOUR CONT

For me, the heart of St Pat's is 9-12. Four holes which are difficult for one reason or another.


......

 Its a rare treat to be beaten over the head and enjoy it.

Agreed.  Could that be because it's just for 4 holes?

All four holes are outstanding.

Spangles

I think 4, 13, 14 & 16 are also difficult holes. Mind you, I didn't try the far forward tees whose total card yardage is 5900, more suitable for my length....6500 is definitely too long for me. However, it think it would spoil the walk a bit on 4, 9 and 12-14. That said, we didn't have serious wind so I think in some conditions I would be compelled to give in and walk forward.

Ciao

Sean,


As far as I can remember you were quite long off the tee. It has been a few years since we last played together. surprised to see you are more comfortable with 5900 than 6500?? would 6200-6300 be your ideal yardage.


One question was the fairways soft at St Pats that you didn't get as much run as you would on another links course. It does look very green in your photos.


Cheers
Ben

Ireland is the Emerald Isle for a reason 😎.  I found the course slightly slow, but than acceptably keen. On 9 I hit a running 6 iron about 50 yards to the hole without whacking it.

I was never long, most I could ever carry a drive was 250 and that was a loooong time ago. No, these days sub 6000 is best for me. My wrist never properly healed from years ago. It has cost me a ton of yardage and I play less than 50% rounds than previously. The recent US trip was a serious grind, but I did discover parkland golf is much easier on the wrist 😎. That's why I have basically shifted my focus to playing more 9 holers and shorter, funkier courses. So far so good.

Ciao

Sean,




True Ireland is greener than England which is more likely to get 'burnt out' fairways in summer.


Sorry to hear about your wrist any chance you have tried the old copper wrist support?




Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

ST PAT'S TOUR CONT

A modest two-shotter which can play much longer than its yardage, the 13th continues the climb up the dune ridge in a very direct manner. I am somewhat taken aback by the old school uphill drive. Into a decent wind I had no hope of reaching the plateau which then leaves a tricky blind approach. There are several other blind or potentially blind approaches, the unusual run of 6-10 comes to mind, but the 13th is a different matter. The play up to the green is quite narrow and really wants to be played from the left where there is some choking rough. If this drive followed any hole other than the 12th I likely wouldn't mind it.


However, the plateau goes a long way to redeeming the tee shot. 


Looking toward the tee.


From on high, St Pat's opens up with the 14th tee shot toward Sheephaven Bay. The corner of the dogleg is chaperoned by a rather large bunker. For some this bunker is an easy carry to an advantageous fairway spot. For others, a safer route left leaves a nasty, somewhat blind approach which is best played like the drive, left....ignore the flag.


A look at the green from near the 15th tee.


The climb from the 14th fairway to the 16th tee is well managed. The transition feels like a trail with switchbacks to lessen the effect on the legs. This is a minor detail, but the kind of feature I fully appreciate. It doesn't make much difference which tee is selected for the short 15th; its abruptly uphill regardless. There is every opportunity to avoid the heroic shot and simply play for bogey. The quality of the shots, added variety to the set of 3s and seamless layout flow make for a cracking hole. From the front of the tee.   


Play is from the right.


The green from further up ther 16th tee.


More to follow.

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Upto now all I can find to bitch about is the most useless Yardage Book I've yet seen. I'm guessing the average age of players is 40+, just when a great no of us start to need reading glasses.  But I don't bring mine out on the course.  The yardage book features small no's to the green, indicating a distance often from  an impossibly small contour detail (some contour lines are 3 to a mm!).  But at present there's nothing on the Sprinkler Heads and my Skycaddie people have not yet been there. Maybe the idea is to ignore it and eyeball or employ a caddie! So obviously this is a course we should all ignore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




But the first hole I have doubts about is the 15th.  The shot looks appealing from the various tees, but with the prevailing wind off the sea it's like a thermal running up the dunes and fair races over that green.  Over 3 days I saw at least 24 shots and I bet less than 1/6th of them stayed in the main bit of the green (and not surprisingly they were from 'good' players). So some missed altogether, but I saw balls land short and finish yards past the 45 yard green from 100 yards.  It will be interesting to see if this is altered in any way.  The putt back is already quite severe.  Maybe this is an example of a hole playing more difficult than it looks.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean will tell you to bump the ball up on 15, Tony… but it is a pretty precise bump-up needed.


The routing - as I see it - made two conscious decisions to climb dunes. Those were from 6 green to 7 tees… and from 14 green to 16 tees. What I mean by that is that all other climbs (e.g. up 13, from 1 to 2 etc…) were necessary to use that part of the property. But the two I mention were very specific routing choices as knock-ons from other decisions. Personally I think the 6 to 7 decision was a really good one, disguised and minimised quite well by the fill done on the 6th green site.


The 14 to 16 decision probably arose from a desire to build the wow-moment 14th hole and a similar desire to go down the big hill on the north side (16) rather than up that hill, which is rather bland in topography. That makes perfect sense though I do think that 15 is the only hole on the course that feels like a link rather than a great hole in its own right…


Anyway, that’s my take on some of the routing choices Tom probably faced. He can now come on and tell me I have it completely wrong!

[Dan_Callahan]

A modest two-shotter which can play much longer than its yardage, the 13th continues the climb up the dune ridge in a very direct manner. I am somewhat taken aback by the old school uphill drive. Into a decent wind I had no hope of reaching the plateau which then leaves a tricky blind approach.

It's funny ... the 13th was one of my favorite holes on the course. I love the blindness of the uphill tee shot. I played it into a very strong wind ... one day I laid back, the other I hit driver up the left. If the course featured a bunch of tee shots like that, it would get old quickly. But in this case, on a hole that is very short so you don't mind not getting any roll if you lay back and hit iron or hybrid off the tee, it works really well. Staying left and hitting it far enough to have a clear view of the green on your second makes an enormous difference.

[Sean_A]

A modest two-shotter which can play much longer than its yardage, the 13th continues the climb up the dune ridge in a very direct manner. I am somewhat taken aback by the old school uphill drive. Into a decent wind I had no hope of reaching the plateau which then leaves a tricky blind approach.

It's funny ... the 13th was one of my favorite holes on the course. I love the blindness of the uphill tee shot. I played it into a very strong wind ... one day I laid back, the other I hit driver up the left. If the course featured a bunch of tee shots like that, it would get old quickly. But in this case, on a hole that is very short so you don't mind not getting any roll if you lay back and hit iron or hybrid off the tee, it works really well. Staying left and hitting it far enough to have a clear view of the green on your second makes an enormous difference.

With the fairway kicking left trying to be left is a dangerous proposition. However, if you can't reach the the plateau being left is the only good option. Any blind approach from the right is very narrow...the angles are highly unfavourable. Even so, I lost a ball from the left when I thought it was a good shot. In the future I would know better.

Spangles, I didn't get the impression 15 is overly severe. Especially with a forward tee nearest the 14th green. Although, I did see a tee shot go through the green which surprised me. I'm not saying 15 is great, but it's nowhere near as severe as The Postage Stamp....and it's one of greatest and most iconic holes on the planet.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Being far from the longest hitter in the world I found the 14th an extremely difficult hole irrespective of which tee I used. In such circumstances I’ll probably play cautiously aiming for drive, second shot layup, third shot pitch to the green and hopefully one putt. Not so straightforward on the 14th at StP though.
After a shortish drive, one that hasn’t reached the corner of the dogleg or one that’s bounced left, which is where many of my various playing partners seemed to hit their tee shots, the second shot is really a tough, awkward, challenging one and not necessarily for the obvious reasons either.
The view towards the green from way back is narrow, the beach is close left and the green itself can’t actually be seen, all of which is fine. In addition, from a long way back carrying the tall blowout bunker on the right side not far short of the green, ie not the blowout bunker on the corner of the dogleg, is unlikely.
So a layup hoping for an up-n-down would seem the most appropriate play. Except that the layup is damn awkward because the fairway at best layup length is extremely humpy-bumpy which makes laying up a combination of challenge and likely unpredictability with small differences in landing spot resulting in quite a variations of bounce and roll, including sideways.
I tired several different methods to approach the 14th green, specifically the length and angle for positioning the layup, all attempted after decent tee shots, without ever achieving an outcome I was happy with. Damn awkward. Fun and frustration and thought provoking combined, which is terrific. I’d love to play the hole many more times to experiment with further methods of laying up.
Not for a moment am I suggesting anything needs changing though, just a playability observation from a short hitter……it’s rub of the green and you take what you get. Sometimes holes favour shorter hitting players and sometimes they don’t. Ce la vie and all that. Be fascinating to know/hear how a long hitter, a much longer hitter, views the hole.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Sean will tell you to bump the ball up on 15, Tony… but it is a pretty precise bump-up needed.


The routing - as I see it - made two conscious decisions to climb dunes. Those were from 6 green to 7 tees… and from 14 green to 16 tees. What I mean by that is that all other climbs (e.g. up 13, from 1 to 2 etc…) were necessary to use that part of the property. But the two I mention were very specific routing choices as knock-ons from other decisions. Personally I think the 6 to 7 decision was a really good one, disguised and minimised quite well by the fill done on the 6th green site.


The 14 to 16 decision probably arose from a desire to build the wow-moment 14th hole and a similar desire to go down the big hill on the north side (16) rather than up that hill, which is rather bland in topography. That makes perfect sense though I do think that 15 is the only hole on the course that feels like a link rather than a great hole in its own right…


Anyway, that’s my take on some of the routing choices Tom probably faced. He can now come on and tell me I have it completely wrong!

No, that's all correct.  The only thing I'd add is that the 15th green is the most beautiful vantage point on the course [and the most exposed point to the wind], and if we were going to have to climb up to 16 tee, that made the perfect place to stop and enjoy the view while putting out.


It is not really that far uphill, but it makes that rise in such a short distance that you can't get a look at the putting surface from the tee.


It is not usually downwind so the green is not as hard to hold as Tony's impression of it.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Sean,


Have you mixed up the photo of the 15th with the 14th? Isn't the one with caption "Rear of green. Again with the odd light" actually the 15th and not the 14th?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Have you mixed up the photo of the 15th with the 14th? Isn't the one with caption "Rear of green. Again with the odd light" actually the 15th and not the 14th?

I don't think so, but maybe. There is fairway in the mid photo and mountains without a town in the background. The green is quite different from 15 as well.

Ciao

[Clyde Johnson]

Sean,

Have you mixed up the photo of the 15th with the 14th? Isn't the one with caption "Rear of green. Again with the odd light" actually the 15th and not the 14th?

I don't think so, but maybe. There is fairway in the mid photo and mountains without a town in the background. The green is quite different from 15 as well.

Ciao

Dónal is correct, that middle photo in the odd light is taken from the walkway to the 16th.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Have you mixed up the photo of the 15th with the 14th? Isn't the one with caption "Rear of green. Again with the odd light" actually the 15th and not the 14th?

I don't think so, but maybe. There is fairway in the mid photo and mountains without a town in the background. The green is quite different from 15 as well.

Ciao

Dónal is correct, that middle photo in the odd light is taken from the walkway to the 16th.

Is there a sneaky path off the rear of 14 green to the back tee of 15? No bunker, right? 15 has a rear bunker.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean, are you still not convinced, even though one of the build team gently tried to help?…  That is definitely a picture of 15 green from the path to the 16th.


The sliver of fairway you see behind is the dogleg of the 14th, far away and below. Back bunker on 15 is out of shot to the left.


I know you’re usually right but…. you’re wrong.

[Thomas Dai]

For clarification purposes - 14th green as seen from the fairway and from the rear of the green.
atb

[Sean_A]

Sean, are you still not convinced, even though one of the build team gently tried to help?…  That is definitely a picture of 15 green from the path to the 16th.


The sliver of fairway you see behind is the dogleg of the 14th, far away and below. Back bunker on 15 is out of shot to the left.


I know you’re usually right but…. you’re wrong.

Not at all. I am trying to remember the rear of 14 green. Hence the question if there is a path to the rear.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Paths to the rear of the 14th - https://www.bing.com/maps?cp=55.163531%7E-7.828756&lvl=17.7&style=a
atb


As an aside here is an aerial photo of the site prior to StP's Renaissance as a course ...

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

What is that brown sandy area in the foreground just on the 4th fairway? Is that a new bunker? It is quite a steep ridge and I noticed in some photos I took, that it wasn't as closely mown as the rest of the fairway; probably due to the more severe slope.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I can’t recall it, Donal. Looking at that photo, it appears to be strimmed down rough grasses which were likely left there as the mound was too sharp to mow.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Ally, this is a photo of the 4th fairway that I took in August last year.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Maybe it’s more leatherjacket / crow damage? There were a few problem areas but usually around the edges of where new turf was laid.

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