[Thomas Dai]

Splendid stuff Sean. Thanks for sharing.

Worth also having a look at a phototour Dan Callahan did a few months ago - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71209.msg1711559.html#msg1711559 - which not only contains some very fine photos but overhead views too.

Dans report and the dialogue that follows also highlights another aspect of StP, well links golf and golf in general ……. the importance of the wind direction as in Dans report the wind was from a different (more northerly) direction than most of the Renaissance Cup games were played in.

And a hole like the 6th highlights how play varies with wind direction and of course wind strength and how different types of shot may suit different wind directions and strengths oftentimes effects play into, around and on greens more than the player perhaps appreciates (as does ball type and standard of grooves on clubheads).


One other aspect of the 6th is that there is more room over the back of the green than there appears to be, ie for a long miss, and also to the right of the green thus maybe negating the need to get cute with the humps just short of the green. Best not to go left though.


As to the 7th/8th. Given the shape and slope of the 7th green and the potential trouble along the sides of the 8th fairway is there really any gain to be achieved by going down the 8th fairway? How many more times will a skilled player make more birdies using this approach? Not many, if any, I suggest.

Magnificent course StP.

Atb


PS - for those who know the area or like looking for features on maps have a look at the hole names on the scorecard posted above.

[Sean_A]

Great stuff Sean.

#5 is one of my favorite par 3's anywhere. Such a cool green, and that pin illustrates what I thought was so unique about the hole. That tucked left pin is probably one of the easier ones to access(gravity), with the right pins probably being most difficult.

Interesting thoughts about approaching 7 from 8 fairway(is that a viable/visible option)?

Jeff

I don't know for sure. It seems to me that the reason for playing up the 8th is because the hole is tucked behind the ridge. To access that hole from the 8th fairway would take a spectacular drive.

Ally, I don't think the 7th is controversial. I heard others say it was. I don't care much about a hole being mainly found in terms of how good it is, regardless 7 is what it is. It adds variety to the course so gets my thumbs up. The only part I don't like is the tee, but I suspect there is a reason why it is that way. Runway tees for downhill shots are, imo, often not a good match.

The 6th, a serious issue with flying features such as this are fairways cut too short. A significant percentage of players will accept the shot on the ground rather than risk fatting or squirreling a wedge.

Ciao

[John Mayhugh]

I do find it off putting if the par 3s are in the same direction in golf course layouts and question the Architect for doing this with questions as per above. Variety is the spice of life.   

By all means, steer clear of National Golf Links of America. The par 3s are in the same general direction and there are only three of them!! Such a disappointment.

[Niall C]

Ben


I've said it before and will say again, when you spend 3 to 5 hours playing golf on a links course you will very likely experience winds of different strengths and many different directions. And that would be true if you stood in the same spot all that time. Once you factor in how the wind can vary on different points of the course at any one point of time then you realise that all the chat about varying hole directions on par 3's in order to experience different winds is just hot air.


In terms of the St Pats routing, the journey round the site is such that you loose the feeling of "out and back" quite quickly. Not that I have any concerns over out and back routings for the reasons stated above.


Niall 

[Ben Stephens]

I do find it off putting if the par 3s are in the same direction in golf course layouts and question the Architect for doing this with questions as per above. Variety is the spice of life.   

By all means, steer clear of National Golf Links of America. The par 3s are in the same general direction and there are only three of them!! Such a disappointment.

Well spotted John yes such a disappointment 

[Ben Stephens]

Ben


I've said it before and will say again, when you spend 3 to 5 hours playing golf on a links course you will very likely experience winds of different strengths and many different directions. And that would be true if you stood in the same spot all that time. Once you factor in how the wind can vary on different points of the course at any one point of time then you realise that all the chat about varying hole directions on par 3's in order to experience different winds is just hot air.


In terms of the St Pats routing, the journey round the site is such that you loose the feeling of "out and back" quite quickly. Not that I have any concerns over out and back routings for the reasons stated above.


Niall

Some good points made Niall. Agree the winds don't always go in one exact direction at times they can swirl - the site conditions/contours and hole length, design and shaping are other factors can make it feel different that you forget about its orientation. Just surprised that Tom Doak put 3 par 3's on a very similar compass point in terms of the routing. 

[John Mayhugh]

[Just surprised that Tom Doak put 3 par 3's on a very similar compass point in terms of the routing.

Clearly Tom's approach to design is not as prescriptive as you think it should be.

A designer has to consider the impact on the whole routing. Saying "I must locate the par 3s going to different compass points" couldn't work without compromising something else, could it? Unless you're creating all of the features of the course, you find the best holes and flow.

[Ben Stephens]

[Just surprised that Tom Doak put 3 par 3's on a very similar compass point in terms of the routing.

Clearly Tom's approach to design is not as prescriptive as you think it should be.

A designer has to consider the impact on the whole routing. Saying "I must locate the par 3s going to different compass points" couldn't work without compromising something else, could it? Unless you're creating all of the features of the course, you find the best holes and flow.

Yes that could be the case. However I just find it weird that 3 are on the same compass point.


Like you pointed out with NGLA par 3's - Question is did CBM fit it in this way in its routing on purpose or as add ons just to fit in with the other holes? their par 3s are all different in character Redan, Short and Eden holes they are strong holes in their own regard.


Still waiting for Sean to put up images of the rest of the par 3s.

[Niall C]

Ben


Being sure you tick all the boxes in terms of "design rules" is a paint by numbers approach and if anyone is more likely to ignore that then it is someone who is at the top of his/her game with a portfolio of outstanding designs to their credit. It seems to me that Tom fits that bill, so no, I'm not surprised he didn't make sure that all his par 3's were playing in different directions.


Niall

[John Mayhugh]

Yes that could be the case. However I just find it weird that 3 are on the same compass point.


Like you pointed out with NGLA par 3's - Question is did CBM fit it in this way in its routing on purpose or as add ons just to fit in with the other holes? their par 3s are all different in character Redan, Short and Eden holes they are strong holes in their own regard.


Still waiting for Sean to put up images of the rest of the par 3s.

Ben,
I find it weird that you are so bothered by this. The orientation of par 3 holes is such a minor issue compared to all of the other factors in the routing and design. I doubt I would even notice that while playing a well-designed course (I didn't at HCEG), but I guess it stands out when looking at a stick routing. This seems an easy (and lazy) point of criticism for someone who hasn't played a course.

Hopefully when you have a chance to look at pictures of all of the St Patrick's par 3s you'll forgive the hole orientations not meeting this arbitrary standard.

As for NGLA, I think you are vastly over-simplifying how course routing decisions work. It's not as if CBM would be thinking let's just wedge these par 3s in because we have to put them somewhere. He's trying to build an ideal course, so it's reasonable to assume he gave everything a lot of thought.

[Sean_A]

ST PAT'S TOUR CONT

For me, the heart of St Pat's is 9-12. Four holes which are difficult for one reason or another. From the daily tees (slate) not one hole is less than 400 yards and two are monster par 4s which could easily be three-shotters. Its rare that a difficult stretch such as this impresses me, yet I can't help admire these holes. Somewhat similar to the 4th, the 9th tee shot plays to a fairway well below the tee. The tee for this 460 behemoth is essentially what could be a section of the 8th green. I can't reach the green in two from this tee, however, it perfectly fits my mantra of short walks between greens so it must be used.


There is a cavernous hollow short and right of the green which on the second shot will be blind for most. Below is the green from well right which highlights the hollow.


Right and rear of the green is a sizeable bank which offers some bailout for those attempting to play over the hollow. Below is another side view of the green.


On the rear bank. Don't be short!


A short walk takes us to the back nine. 10-12 are in an isolated inland part of the property which play off the edge of the dunes. These holes definitely feel different from the remainder of the course. Almost as if the land is not quite as good for golf as the holes ringed in dunes. It's surprising then that I gravitate toward these holes.

Well placed bunkers up the left of 10 set the hole up for the wildly pitched boomerang green.




A large chunk of the green is out of shot to the left.


St John the Baptist (11th) is one of the most intruiging hole names I have come across. Many will drive by this church on the way to St Pat's. By coincidence, I happened to stop by the site of the original chapel and cemetary just down the road from the current church.


Playing downhill, the long 11th finishes at one of the oddest greens I have encountered. When playing the hole for the first time the personality of the putting surface isn't in the least obvious. There is a large trench dividing the green! The right side seems like it flows into the rough. Its the damndest green I have seen in quite some time. The hole is located in the trench near the rear of the green. Its unfortunate the drive is pointed directly at the car park, but I expect there are plans to hide the cars or move the lot


A grueling par five, #12 is uphill for all of its 546 yards over what is probably St Pat's most unruly fairway. The large green sort of matches the uphill and rough nature of the fairway. Same as the 11th, only one photo. Folks need to see the hole personally as their first experience. Its a shame this section of the course has to end. Its a rare treat to be beaten over the head and enjoy it.


More to follow.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Yes that could be the case. However I just find it weird that 3 are on the same compass point.


Like you pointed out with NGLA par 3's - Question is did CBM fit it in this way in its routing on purpose or as add ons just to fit in with the other holes? their par 3s are all different in character Redan, Short and Eden holes they are strong holes in their own regard.


Still waiting for Sean to put up images of the rest of the par 3s.

Ben,
I find it weird that you are so bothered by this. The orientation of par 3 holes is such a minor issue compared to all of the other factors in the routing and design. I doubt I would even notice that while playing a well-designed course (I didn't at HCEG), but I guess it stands out when looking at a stick routing. This seems an easy (and lazy) point of criticism for someone who hasn't played a course.

Hopefully when you have a chance to look at pictures of all of the St Patrick's par 3s you'll forgive the hole orientations not meeting this arbitrary standard.

As for NGLA, I think you are vastly over-simplifying how course routing decisions work. It's not as if CBM would be thinking let's just wedge these par 3s in because we have to put them somewhere. He's trying to build an ideal course, so it's reasonable to assume he gave everything a lot of thought.

John,


I am not bothered about it - its just I find it weird at times that's the difference.


It seems that Pasatiempo all the 5 par3s face north - how strange . The more its creeping up - Myopia, NGLA etc


Have you tried doing routing work even with contours and taking into account sun and wind conditions as well? its not a simple job - someone once said you could do 100 holes on this piece of land and only have 18 holes - its about getting the right routing with the land provided like a musical symphony getting the 'notes' and rhythm' right well.


So if Tom Doak, Harry Colt, CBM and Alister Mackenzie did this to get the layout/routing 'notes' and 'rhythm' right so be it. Tom hasn't really provided comments why were they put there why he felt they were the right places to do so. 


Its getting weirder now that more and more well known courses have at least 3 par 3's in the same direction.


Cheers
Ben

[John Mayhugh]

Ben,
What's weird is that given several examples of outstanding golf courses that don't adhere to your par 3 expectations, you can't accept that it's not that important a criteria. I could probably come up with many more courses (e.g. Royal Melbourne East), but I don't believe you would change your mind if 1/3 of the top 100 didn't fit your expectation.

I understand that course routing is not simple - one reason I don't try to do it. Instead, I like playing golf courses. I have always assumed that a skilled designer is trying to come up with the best overall course, and it's hardly surprising that the best ones don't adhere to rigid rules like yours. Rules that do little to nothing to guarantee the course is good. I can somewhat understand design dogma like all points of the compass par 3s - along with other things like balanced 9s, certain mix of pars, sequencing of holes, sizes of greens, etc. - if it comes from someone who hasn't seen a great variety of courses and doesn't know better. But my god, you live in England!

[Tony_Muldoon]

ST PAT'S TOUR CONT

For me, the heart of St Pat's is 9-12. Four holes which are difficult for one reason or another.


......






 Its a rare treat to be beaten over the head and enjoy it.

Agreed.  Could that be because it's just for 4 holes?

All four holes are outstanding.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,
What's weird is that given several examples of outstanding golf courses that don't adhere to your par 3 expectations, you can't accept that it's not that important a criteria. I could probably come up with many more courses (e.g. Royal Melbourne East), but I don't believe you would change your mind if 1/3 of the top 100 didn't fit your expectation.

I understand that course routing is not simple - one reason I don't try to do it. Instead, I like playing golf courses. I have always assumed that a skilled designer is trying to come up with the best overall course, and it's hardly surprising that the best ones don't adhere to rigid rules like yours. Rules that do little to nothing to guarantee the course is good. I can somewhat understand design dogma like all points of the compass par 3s - along with other things like balanced 9s, certain mix of pars, sequencing of holes, sizes of greens, etc. - if it comes from someone who hasn't seen a great variety of courses and doesn't know better. But my god, you live in England!

Hmm, who said i had rigid rules? (that's assumption on your behalf) and are you also implying that I haven't seen enough courses? ok thats your prerogative then which i don't have a problem that. Aren't people entitled to their preferences - I am sure Tom has his and other architects have theirs.

Now it is becoming more familiar that more great golf courses have a number of par 3s in a similar direction 2 or 3 of them that hasn't really been picked up on GCA in the past. If the course has credentials and good reviews from a reliable source its worth looking at and seeing the reasons why the par 3s were put into those places/directions however on a weaker course its a different story. 

I have heard rave reviews about St Pats especially from Adam Lawrence and I hope to see and play it one day however in current circumstances it is unlikely as the prices have gone up massively travel, stay and green fees wise (200 euros in 2023) so have to rely on course reviews from Sean and Dan Callahan.

Will stick to playing golf in England for the foreseeable future    plenty of awesome golf courses to learn from.

[Ben Stephens]

.

[John Mayhugh]

I can somewhat understand design dogma like all points of the compass par 3s - along with other things like balanced 9s, certain mix of pars, sequencing of holes, sizes of greens, etc. - if it comes from someone who hasn't seen a great variety of courses and doesn't know better. But my god, you live in England!

Hmm, who said i had rigid rules? (that's assumption on your behalf) and are you also implying that I haven't seen enough courses?

Ben,
Since you live in England, I am sure you have seen an ample variety of courses that would disabuse someone of many ideas about what makes a great course. The point of my comment was not to suggest that you haven't seen enough courses. Rather, I'm surprised that you stick to the par 3 judgement after having seen examples of why rules like that shouldn't apply.

I don't think we are likely to agree, so after that clarification, I'll just enjoy the rest of Sean's thread. I love the look of the course.

[Ben Sims]

Enjoying this one, as always, Sean. I’d never heard that Frank Lloyd Wright bit about compression and release. It’s a topic I’ve tried to gain traction on for years around here from time to time. It’s one of the most important aspects to routing a golf course through great terrain. I worded it “intimacy and grandeur”, but I like FLW’s compression and release better. I think Tom/Renaissance pays more attention to it than anyone else.


Also, elsewhere we talked briefly about the divot farms that can result in terrain with large and/or steep slopes. For whatever reason, the photographs of this course seem to indicate that there aren’t that many of these areas here. Did you find that to be the case?

[Dan_Callahan]

I've got to believe that over time short right of 9 will be loaded with divots.

[Thomas Dai]

Notably challenging section from the 9th to the 12th. Wonderful greensites, epic ones, on the 10th and 11th.
Atb

[Sean_A]

Enjoying this one, as always, Sean. I’d never heard that Frank Lloyd Wright bit about compression and release. It’s a topic I’ve tried to gain traction on for years around here from time to time. It’s one of the most important aspects to routing a golf course through great terrain. I worded it “intimacy and grandeur”, but I like FLW’s compression and release better. I think Tom/Renaissance pays more attention to it than anyone else.


Also, elsewhere we talked briefly about the divot farms that can result in terrain with large and/or steep slopes. For whatever reason, the photographs of this course seem to indicate that there aren’t that many of these areas here. Did you find that to be the case?

I didn't notice high divot areas, but the course is young and I don't think it has been open in winter.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I've got to believe that over time short right of 9 will be loaded with divots.

Eh, maybe, but I have been down there several times and have yet to take a divot . . . I bump the ball into the slope and let it run up.  It's also a pretty big broad area down there, so you can have a lot of divots but they won't all be in a small space.


Also, as Sean notes, St. Patrick's is unlikely to ever be open through the winter.

[Thomas Dai]

I've got to believe that over time short right of 9 will be loaded with divots.

Eh, maybe, but I have been down there several times and have yet to take a divot . . . I bump the ball into the slope and let it run up.  It's also a pretty big broad area down there, so you can have a lot of divots but they won't all be in a small space.
Also, as Sean notes, St. Patrick's is unlikely to ever be open through the winter.

Question …. which is easier to maintain for greenkeepers, a smallish spot where all the divots accumulate together and can thus be quickly hand filled with mix and/or occasionally returfed or a larger, more widespread area where the divots are spread out over a much greater area? Just curious.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

I've got to believe that over time short right of 9 will be loaded with divots.

Eh, maybe, but I have been down there several times and have yet to take a divot . . . I bump the ball into the slope and let it run up.  It's also a pretty big broad area down there, so you can have a lot of divots but they won't all be in a small space.
Also, as Sean notes, St. Patrick's is unlikely to ever be open through the winter.

Question …. which is easier to maintain for greenkeepers, a smallish spot where all the divots accumulate together and can thus be quickly hand filled with mix and/or occasionally returfed or a larger, more widespread area where the divots are spread out over a much greater area? Just curious.
Atb

I'm curious to hear what superintendents say here.  I would guess it depends on how much $ they have in their budgets.  Sodding is easy if you've got the dough.


I just happened to walk Pinehurst #2 this morning and with the grass going dormant, there were some hollows in the fairways at the 10th and 12th holes that were divot farms.  But they were also key features that made the overall drainage of the course work.

[Tim_Weiman]

Yes that could be the case. However I just find it weird that 3 are on the same compass point.


Like you pointed out with NGLA par 3's - Question is did CBM fit it in this way in its routing on purpose or as add ons just to fit in with the other holes? their par 3s are all different in character Redan, Short and Eden holes they are strong holes in their own regard.


Still waiting for Sean to put up images of the rest of the par 3s.

Ben,
I find it weird that you are so bothered by this. The orientation of par 3 holes is such a minor issue compared to all of the other factors in the routing and design. I doubt I would even notice that while playing a well-designed course (I didn't at HCEG), but I guess it stands out when looking at a stick routing. This seems an easy (and lazy) point of criticism for someone who hasn't played a course.

Hopefully when you have a chance to look at pictures of all of the St Patrick's par 3s you'll forgive the hole orientations not meeting this arbitrary standard.

As for NGLA, I think you are vastly over-simplifying how course routing decisions work. It's not as if CBM would be thinking let's just wedge these par 3s in because we have to put them somewhere. He's trying to build an ideal course, so it's reasonable to assume he gave everything a lot of thought.

John,


I am not bothered about it - its just I find it weird at times that's the difference.


It seems that Pasatiempo all the 5 par3s face north - how strange . The more its creeping up - Myopia, NGLA etc


Have you tried doing routing work even with contours and taking into account sun and wind conditions as well? its not a simple job - someone once said you could do 100 holes on this piece of land and only have 18 holes - its about getting the right routing with the land provided like a musical symphony getting the 'notes' and rhythm' right well.


So if Tom Doak, Harry Colt, CBM and Alister Mackenzie did this to get the layout/routing 'notes' and 'rhythm' right so be it. Tom hasn't really provided comments why were they put there why he felt they were the right places to do so. 


Its getting weirder now that more and more well known courses have at least 3 par 3's in the same direction.


Cheers
Ben

Ben,


I don’t recall anyone at the recent Renaissance Cup expressing any concern about the direction of Par 3 holes at St. Patrick’s. When you consider everything about the golf course, honestly, I doubt it is even worth mentioning.

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