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Rob Marshall

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What makes a hole bad?
« on: November 28, 2022, 09:07:39 PM »
 I know when I don’t like a hole but what makes it bad? Looking over some old posts about Bulls Bay, there were some posts about how nice the course was except for #13. Personally I didn’t think there was a bad hole on the course. On 13 I hit driver, laid up slightly around the corner. I had a slightly downhill lie, 100 yard shot to a shallow green fronted by  a creek. Over the green left a tough bunker shot. Short and the ball is in the drink. I loved it. Especially challenging because of the slight downhill lie. What’s not to like? Plus it was a beautiful setting to book.


Is it different for a par 3 vs a par 4 or 5? Some examples would be great.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2022, 10:16:34 PM »
   I hate a par 4 where the tee shot is a forced layup (either because of a hazard or sharp dogleg) and the second is a very long approach. 13 at White Manor comes to mind.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 03:08:47 PM by Jim_Coleman »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2022, 12:17:55 PM »





I wrote this a few years ago in my book "Designs On a Better Golf Course, Questions and Answers for Green Committees.......To make it fit this thread, I suppose you would say that most holes that don't have most or all of these features would be a bad hole, at least according to most golfers.

A good hole fits the land well, plays well, has reasonable challenge, is fun, looks great, is memorable, and is also distinct from others on the course. 
Some of the world’s great holes violate some of the good practices listed below.  Most holes (with exceptions…there are always exceptions) follow most, if not all, of the following generally accepted golf course design principles:
•   Aesthetics – Most of us play golf in large part to be out in nature. 
•   Visible targets and hazards – First, they are artistic (see above).  Second, this fosters strategy and even safety, especially at courses you may only play one time.
•   Length – From each tee, golfers should be able to play holes of all types from a reasonable length for them.
•   Width – With some variety, wide turf corridors (fairways and roughs) facilitate strategic route options. Sub-200 foot turf corridors are narrow, while 225-250 foot corridors are comfortable.  Any wider is just plain embarrassing to miss, but it does happen.
•   Challenge – The Robert Trent Jones mantra of “Hard Par, Easy Bogey” still applies.  We add “possible birdie.”
•   Strategy and Options – One way to play the hole is penal, two or more ways to play is strategic.  Parents know that giving kids one choice makes them defiant but offering them their choice usually makes them compliant.  Golfers aren’t very different. 
•   Risk and Reward – Temptation has been around since Adam and Eve.  Choosing between safe and risky shots is always fun. Choices elevate the game from a physical one to a physical and mental one. 
·     Encourage Good Shots – by letting golfers succeed, i.e., hold the green, stay in the fairway, etc., with all but very bad luck.  And, by keeping most hazards moderately difficult, because overly punitive hazards make golfers less likely to take risks and succumb to temptation. 
·     Punish Bad Shots Proportionally – There are many variations in philosophy, applied by different designers with different goals to unique topography for each hole.  However, most architects try to distinguish golfing misdemeanors from bigger crimes……. at least most of the time.  Hazards that allow recovery enhance strategy, and, as someone opined long ago, “The right of eternal punishment should be left to a higher power than the golf course architect.”  Besides, scorecard wrecking shots make for good bar talk.  They also make golf course architects famous. 
·     Fair – While architects usually strive for “fair,” life’s not fair and neither is golf.  “Perfectly fair” is unattainable.  We can’t, and shouldn’t, eliminate “rub of the green.”
·     Playable by All – For “D” players a “good shot” is airborne, generally flying towards the hole, and most of the way there.  Even by that relaxed standard, most hit about 10 good shots per round and their best shots should get positive results!  Those who hit less than 10 successful shots per round are called “E” (as in “ex”) golfers.  When considering challenge and difficulty, architects generally err on the side of caution to accommodate all potential players by minimizing forced carries from the forward-most tees, which was easier to do before the environmental movement put birds ahead of birdies and minimizing hazards that only punish poor shots. 
·     Agronomically Sound – While unseen by golfers, architects must make sure the soils, sun and breeze, together with proper drainage and irrigation support fine turf expected by golfers.
 
 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2022, 01:12:06 PM »
A lot of the old courses have very tight fairways and limbs overhanging them as well. It makes for a day of punching out from the trees. No fun and boring.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2022, 01:25:57 PM »
I played one bad hole in California. It had a mechanical fan.


Is the mechanical fan dead? They seem to have faded away.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2022, 01:45:35 PM »
  You might not enjoy Merion

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2022, 01:59:42 PM »
I'm workshopping this answer: a hole that's just not ________ to play.

The blank could be any of:
  • Fun
  • Rewarding/Satisfying
  • Exciting to the senses in a positive way (just a pleasure to look at, with a great sense of place)
That doesn't mean an easy hole. I can appreciate a hard hole. It's fun/satisfying to overcome the challenge of a hard hole.

That might be it. That might be my whole list.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2022, 02:15:04 PM »
Everyone has to hit their second shot to roughly the same place on 13 at Bull's Bay. If you don't get it far enough up, you're blocked by the trees and have to lay up to that same spot with your third shot.

There's just a lack of options. I don't think 13 at Bull's Bay is a bad hole -- I've played much worse -- but it's not an especially good one.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2022, 02:34:23 PM »
  You might not enjoy Merion


If Merion has fans I bet they take them down when the good players come to town. In the mean time they stand as symbols reminding us of our past mistakes.



Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2022, 03:02:08 PM »
I really dislike Par 5s that feel like endless slogs. They seem to be placeholders required by the convention of Par and length. Congressional 16 (not sure if changed with the latest renovation), Kapalua Plantation 9 and 15, and Duke 15 all come to mind.


Kingsbarns 18 is another version of a bad hole. Either you have to hit a heroic carry or play an awkward layup. Plus the hole feels out of character from the rest of the course which is unfortunate for a finishing hole.


Ira

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2022, 04:22:49 PM »
I really dislike Par 5s that feel like endless slogs. They seem to be placeholders required by the convention of Par and length. Congressional 16 (not sure if changed with the latest renovation), Kapalua Plantation 9 and 15, and Duke 15 all come to mind.


Kingsbarns 18 is another version of a bad hole. Either you have to hit a heroic carry or play an awkward layup. Plus the hole feels out of character from the rest of the course which is unfortunate for a finishing hole.

Ira

I disagree. Many golfers successfully negotiate the 18th. Because it does not suit all games doesn't make it a poor hole.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2022, 04:35:58 PM »
I really dislike Par 5s that feel like endless slogs. They seem to be placeholders required by the convention of Par and length. Congressional 16 (not sure if changed with the latest renovation), Kapalua Plantation 9 and 15, and Duke 15 all come to mind.


Kingsbarns 18 is another version of a bad hole. Either you have to hit a heroic carry or play an awkward layup. Plus the hole feels out of character from the rest of the course which is unfortunate for a finishing hole.

Ira

I disagree. Many golfers successfully negotiate the 18th. Because it does not suit all games doesn't make it a poor hole.

Ciao


I actually negotiated it (with a bit of a lucky bounce), but it still is a bad hole. It offers poor options, and it does not feel anything like the rest of the course. But perhaps my finding the course overrated by a lot independent of the cost and the faux Scottish experience may color my judgment.


Ira
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 05:33:18 PM by Ira Fishman »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad? New
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2022, 06:44:30 PM »
I really dislike Par 5s that feel like endless slogs. They seem to be placeholders required by the convention of Par and length. Congressional 16 (not sure if changed with the latest renovation), Kapalua Plantation 9 and 15, and Duke 15 all come to mind.


Kingsbarns 18 is another version of a bad hole. Either you have to hit a heroic carry or play an awkward layup. Plus the hole feels out of character from the rest of the course which is unfortunate for a finishing hole.

Ira

I disagree. Many golfers successfully negotiate the 18th. Because it does not suit all games doesn't make it a poor hole.

Ciao


I actually negotiated it (with a bit of a lucky bounce), but it still is a bad hole. It offers poor options, and it does not feel anything like the rest of the course. But perhaps my finding the course overrated by a lot independent of the cost and the faux Scottish experience may color my judgment.

Ira

The hole offers one option. But there are plenty of holes like that which are considered good. I think the water theme fits in with the course and location. I don't love the hole, but that doesn't make it bad.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 02:04:34 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2022, 07:27:28 PM »
Bad.....no......not at all my preference - a finishing hole playing into the setting sun.


Can't see a thing; difficulty following the ball; sun glare causing all kinds of issues.


Just my $0.02.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2022, 10:12:35 PM »
It can be a number of things but I dislike holes that dogleg one way yet the fairway tilts the other, the 14th at PB comes to mind. It is not the worst one/example and perhaps sometimes its uniqueness gets it an ok.


Blind greens where the front has been jacked up so you cant see where you approach landed or multiple tiers so you can see the result. I dont mind blind holes over dunes but not where it is a construction error.


Greens that have so much slope a ball will roll to the nearest point. (Sometimes 50 yards away)


Holes where you play a 5 iron lay up then a longer second.


Narrow greens wherby no normal golfer could hit and stop the ball.. (common on courses in Southern Spain)... where there is no ground option,


I think uphill holes naturally are more likely to be bad, whereby downhill holes are more desireable.


Severe dog leg holes are usually bad


Holes that are very narrow or constricted can end up bad, a 20 yard corridor is probably 10 yards too narrow.


Wide fairways also if there are no options or hazards or green defence.


Holes need to be different so within 'a course' variety is important. A course with several samey holes can lead to bad just because you kind of repeat things. An odd hole that might be bkind.semi blind...narrow is okish,


BUT the great thing about golf courses is that it is often when the rules are broken some greatness can appear.







A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2022, 12:54:20 AM »
I played Tobacco Road early November for the first time and was absolutely enchanted by the course. I immediately wanted to play it again. Mike Strantz was a genius.


That said, 16 is a bad hole, here are my reasons:


1) Only hole on the course that is cartpath only every day. On an extremely sandy site there should not be any everyday cartpath only holes, full stop. This means that the the fairway is basically placed in a wetland.


2) Long into the green is absolutely dead, and frequently a chip or putt to the front leads to going off the front and 30 yards down into a fairway bowl hacked to smithereens with divots.


3) Short is absolutely dead, as you end up in the same place.


4) Generally a weird aesthetic with the angular geometric berm bunker off the tee that is out of character with the rest of the course.


I very much look forward to my next 17 holes at Tobacco Road.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a hole bad?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2022, 01:31:22 AM »
My theory used to be that if you are aiming for the center stripe off the tee the hole is likely a bad one.  Not sure that holds up given the analytical data suggesting you should always aim there.