Crossover holes in the routing

[Tom_Doak]

I should have noted, that besides the potential for lawsuits, one reason you are less likely to see crossovers on modern courses / in America is because it is harder to do if there are 4-6 tees stretching down the hole instead of just one or two as on older courses. 


For example, the two holes at Tara Iti cross about 90 yards in front of the back tee, but that makes it less safe to put a tee 50-140 yards in front of the back tee on either hole, or you might have to wait for someone to tee off from those locations.

[Sean_A]

I should have noted, that besides the potential for lawsuits, one reason you are less likely to see crossovers on modern courses / in America is because it is harder to do if there are 4-6 tees stretching down the hole instead of just one or two as on older courses. 

Cha ching. Mega tees can cause issues which are often not mentioned by the every hole must be equally fair and playable crowd.

I bristle at most anything which is designed to codify design. Hate it.

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

I should have noted, that besides the potential for lawsuits, one reason you are less likely to see crossovers on modern courses / in America is because it is harder to do if there are 4-6 tees stretching down the hole instead of just one or two as on older courses. 

Cha ching. Mega tees can cause issues which are often not mentioned by the every hole must be equally fair and playable crowd.

I bristle at most anything which is designed to codify design. Hate it.

Ciao

And yet probably a majority of examples cited on this thread are where back (often multiple) tees were added to challenge the longer player and/or accommodate technology. Fair and playable for whom? And no I really don’t want to turn this into a number of tees thread. But let’s be consistent: why are we okay with Ballybunion adding back tees as crossovers or Tom designing them for longer players but then frowning on them for players who cannot handle the distances (hand raised)?


Ira

[Tommy Williamsen]

My memory is so good anymore, so I am not certain I have the correct hole. When I was at Bandon a few weeks ago, I remember hitting a tee shot over the corner of a green. I think it was the tee shot on two at Pacific Dunes. There were a few sets of tees, and the one we used peaked over the green. It wasn't exactly over the green, but I remember thinking, "Don't heel it." But it could have been somewhere else.

[Tom_Doak]

My memory is so good anymore, so I am not certain I have the correct hole. When I was at Bandon a few weeks ago, I remember hitting a tee shot over the corner of a green. I think it was the tee shot on two at Pacific Dunes. There were a few sets of tees, and the one we used peaked over the green. It wasn't exactly over the green, but I remember thinking, "Don't heel it." But it could have been somewhere else.

Tommy:


Yes, if you used the leftmost tee on the 2nd at Pacific Dunes, the line of play is pretty close to the back of the 1st green.


I'd guess there are a couple of other holes at Bandon that are similar, but I can't think of one immediately.

[Tom_Doak]

And yet probably a majority of examples cited on this thread are where back (often multiple) tees were added to challenge the longer player and/or accommodate technology. Fair and playable for whom? And no I really don’t want to turn this into a number of tees thread. But let’s be consistent: why are we okay with Ballybunion adding back tees as crossovers or Tom designing them for longer players but then frowning on them for players who cannot handle the distances (hand raised)?

Ira:


You are more likely to see a back tee with a crossover because
a). The back tees aren't used that frequently, and
b)  We assume players on the back tees have better sense about not hitting in a dangerous situation


My point with the forward tees was that they are more likely to sneak into the line of play from the hole that's hitting across them.

[Jim_Coleman]

   At Bel Air, doesn’t the back tee on 9 require a shot over the 8th green, or did that change after the renovation? Not exactly a cross over, but sort of.

[Mike_Clayton]

Knole Park near Seven Oaks in Kent is not so well known but Abercromby did it so not surprise it's really good.
The tee shot off the 4th plays straight across the 3rd fairway - over a point about 80 yards short of the 3rd green.

[Tom_Doak]

   At Bel Air, doesn’t the back tee on 9 require a shot over the 8th green, or did that change after the renovation? Not exactly a cross over, but sort of.

There is a tee there, added at the suggestion of Eddie Merrins 20-30 years ago, so the college kids wouldn’t just drive the green.  Now that the barranca on 9 is restored, we want them to try to drive it!  So that tree should have come out in the restoration, but politically, it was easier just to ignore it.

[Rob Marshall]

Is there a reason to put in a crossover other than to add length or make up for a lack of real estate?

[Jason Topp]

Is there a reason to put in a crossover other than to add length or make up for a lack of real estate?

The one at Sand Hills (5th, not the 8th I stated earlier) creates a more interesting angle for the tee shot. 

[Steve Holloway]

Those who have ever played Woodbridge in Suffolk will remember the 90-degree crossover from the 16th tee across the 14th fairway - all the times I've visited it has never has presented any issues to groups on either hole as the tee on 16 is slightly elevated and offers a good view of approaching players from the left tackling 14 - the general rule of thumb is those playing 14 hang back on the approach shot to allow those on 16 to tee off. It takes a fairly well struck tee shot from 14 to reach the crossover and enter the firing line from 16, but as mentioned the elevation of 16 allows good vision. However, this may change as one of the 6 new back tees that are being constructed presently will be for 16 and this is to be moved not only further back but 20 -30 yards to the left slightly further up the 14th fairway and most likely those playing down 14 will more often encroach at the crossover from the tee shot. Undoubtedly the more regular players are familiar with the protocol of these crossovers - the infrequent visitor not so.


Ps - loving GCA and the discussion board from a newbie

[Tom_Doak]

Is there a reason to put in a crossover other than to add length or make up for a lack of real estate?

The other good reason is that it can shorten the walk.  Instead of walking around another hole to get to the next tee, you just play across the space.  Even if you then walk around the safety problem for the other hole, you've probably saved 100 yards of length for the hole in question.


I'm starting to think about road crossings the same way.  Crossing the road between hitting your tee shot and walking to it, keeps you in the moment a lot better than walking across the road before hitting your tee shot.  And yes, I know that's a safety issue, too, but think of some of the courses that do it:


The Old Course [1st & 18th holes across Granny Clark's Wind]
Cypress Point [1st tee shot across 17 Mile Drive]
Pebble Beach [16th tee shot across internal road]
National Golf Links [tee shot at 8th & second shot at 11th across a busy road]
Shinnecock Hills [second shot at 12th & tee shot at 13th across a residential street]


Plus the large number of famous courses with a shot across their entrance drives.

[Jim_Coleman]

   At Rolling Green, you walk past the 12th tee to get to the 9th tee.  Adds an insignificant few yards to your walk, but returns you to the clubhouse.

[Ira Fishman]

And yet probably a majority of examples cited on this thread are where back (often multiple) tees were added to challenge the longer player and/or accommodate technology. Fair and playable for whom? And no I really don’t want to turn this into a number of tees thread. But let’s be consistent: why are we okay with Ballybunion adding back tees as crossovers or Tom designing them for longer players but then frowning on them for players who cannot handle the distances (hand raised)?

Ira:


You are more likely to see a back tee with a crossover because
a). The back tees aren't used that frequently, and
b)  We assume players on the back tees have better sense about not hitting in a dangerous situation


My point with the forward tees was that they are more likely to sneak into the line of play from the hole that's hitting across them.

Tom,


Thanks. My off-thread post was a response to Sean who took your post about modern courses as evidence against multiple tees. On the courses I have played that you designed there indeed have been multiple tee options with Ballyneal being the epitome. Sean does not like forward tees or multiple tees. I was just pointing out that crossovers often are a result of adding multiple back tees including on golden age courses.


Ira

[Michael Felton]

The 18th holes on both courses at Walton Heath have back tees that involve playing across 17 on the New. I think they've let the Old one go though and the New tee I haven't seen them use in a long time either (although I don't live there anymore, so I probably wouldn't notice it). Was never really an issue for play.


The one I remember most vividly is the 1st at Porthcawl playing across the 18th. I believe they were discussing the possibility of the Open being there, but that was something they were going to have to fix if they did. No one wants to change 18 and 1 would be so short if you move it across the fairway. I think they were discussing putting the 1st tee behind the 18th green, making it a dogleg. Not sure how that would work out.

[Ian Mackenzie]

  oops...

[Clyde Johnson]

A few more obscure examples from Scotland...
- Kinghorn has a fair few in a really compact front-nine.
- The par-4 7th at Cambuslang plays across the 6th and then 1st fairways.
- The par-4 11th at Glencorse  plays beneath the 12th and 18th drives.
- Polloc Cricket Club plays back and forth over the wicket from 6 green sites spread around the boundary (in the winter.)

...though none of those are like what you're thinking for Castle Stuart.

[jeffwarne]

At Northwest GC in Donegal the 18th tee shot crosses the 17th fairway.
There was another crossover on the front(3 I think) before they built a new fairway and green for 3.
At Palmetto, the back tee on 12 crosses in front of 11 green-they used to occasionally flip the(back to back) tees in events on 4 and 14, making for some interesting log jams.


The Bridge has a crossover on 6 tee from the back tees over par 3 5th green.
Saves a 200 yard walk back to the old tee and is a far better tee shot
Just amazed me how many people told me that wouldn't work.
People aren't on the green of a par 3 you just finished the moment you walk off the green,...
They can't hit to 5 green until you clear the par 3 green, and as they are hitting up to 5 green, you are hitting off 6 tee into 6 fairway, which will clear far faster than a par 3 green. Zero problem even in full field competitive events.


13 back tee, steps off 12 green hits across 12 approach and green, and creates a fantastic Cape hole, actually making the fairway far wider and adding actual strategy to the hole.
This one requires a little cooperation with players hitting into 12 alternating with players teeing off on 13 out of courtesy. Again, zero problem in full field competitive events-though officials are always loathe to try it, then pleasantly surprised.


Neither of these back tees add length, they just create interesting angles and shorten the walks back and forth to the prior back tee...


Great topic, wish we saw more and other creative solutions to create MORE compactness and intimacy and less huge scale stuff.

[Carl Nichols]

As I recall the 1st and 18th at Royal Ashdown Forest cross somewhere around the midpoint of each fairway. I’ve played the course only a few times and it’s been quite a while, and I don’t recall thinking of the danger at the time, but a crossing at such a place would seem to be perilous.
The other crossing that comes to mind is that of the 6th and 18th at Hanover CC at Dartmouth College. The drives on the holes would cross over a gorge, and the angle of the crossing and proximity of the crossing to the respective teeing areas made the design fairly safe. Can’t speak to the risk, from topped drives, to walkers and runners using the trail that runs along the bottom of the gorge.
But alas, the world is now a safer place since Dartmouth in its wisdom has closed the course.

That's all correct, in my view.  But there was only one bridge, and the drives for both holes went over the bridge, so you typically had to allow players from the other hole to cross the bridge before hitting your drive, or vice versa.  It worked perfectly well.

[Amol Yajnik]

I find myself curious about the etiquette, especially in the Indian examples where there are frequent occurrences. How does it work so well?

Years ago, my father played a course in India that had a crossover in the routing.  The club had hired a man to basically act as a crossing guard to indicate when groups could hit and when they could cross over the other hole.  He told me that there was no shortage of people around that needed a job so the club was able to employ someone to do that job.

[Tom_Doak]

Years ago, my father played a course in India that had a crossover in the routing.  The club had hired a man to basically act as a crossing guard to indicate when groups could hit and when they could cross over the other hole.  He told me that there was no shortage of people around that needed a job so the club was able to employ someone to do that job.

I suggested the same thing as a possibility for the road crossing on the 15th hole at Mid Ocean.


Unfortunately, labor [and cost of living] in Bermuda is considerably more expensive than in India!

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Years ago, my father played a course in India that had a crossover in the routing.  The club had hired a man to basically act as a crossing guard to indicate when groups could hit and when they could cross over the other hole.  He told me that there was no shortage of people around that needed a job so the club was able to employ someone to do that job.

I suggested the same thing as a possibility for the road crossing on the 15th hole at Mid Ocean.


Unfortunately, labor [and cost of living] in Bermuda is considerably more expensive than in India!

Isn't there someone supervising/directing golfers with a flag at the Klondyke in Lahinch? Not sure if it's needed outside of the busy summer months. I may have seen photos or saw it in person when I played there years ago; can't remember exactly.

[Tom_Doak]

Isn't there someone supervising/directing golfers with a flag at the Klondyke in Lahinch? Not sure if it's needed outside of the busy summer months. I may have seen photos or saw it in person when I played there years ago; can't remember exactly.

There may be, nowadays, what with Health & Safety laws getting stronger all the time.  I know Prestwick was required to have marshals while they had the old crossover routing in play.  Sadly, I haven't been back to Lahinch in ages, so I can't say, but there was never anyone on duty on my visits there in the 1980's and 90's.  They would probably have laughed at the thought.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Isn't there someone supervising/directing golfers with a flag at the Klondyke in Lahinch? Not sure if it's needed outside of the busy summer months. I may have seen photos or saw it in person when I played there years ago; can't remember exactly.

There may be, nowadays, what with Health & Safety laws getting stronger all the time.  I know Prestwick was required to have marshals while they had the old crossover routing in play.  Sadly, I haven't been back to Lahinch in ages, so I can't say, but there was never anyone on duty on my visits there in the 1980's and 90's.  They would probably have laughed at the thought.

I think there is now. As you can see in this video, there is a small green hut just on the other side of the hill; I think this is where he/she sits and directs the "traffic":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MUZJ2zbO1c