Crossover holes in the routing

[Niall C]

Adam


Interesting comment on Colt. MacKenzie clearly didn't have a problem with them either as there are cross over holes at both Alwoodley and Pitreavie. The interesting thing is that they were designed at a time when they were being designed out of a lot of existing courses and excluded from new ones, probably as a reaction to how prevalent they were in the old days.


Then just last night I was reading the new Braid book and there was a cross over hole on one of his later redesigns done after WWII.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Lahinch has a crossover that we realized for my only play there. We thought we were finding stray ball and it ended up being the guys playing on the 18th.

I almost mentioned that one in my opening post, but it would have disturbed the point about how it's easier to do crossovers on par-3 holes, because the traffic flow is more predictable.


The one at Lahinch is actually pretty dangerous . . . players coming off #18 tee are crossing the fairway of the 4th hole, and players on the 4th are hitting blindly over the Klondike sand dune toward random other groups.  And the holes are far enough apart in the routing that the traffic situation is unpredictable.

The Lahinch example is really a bad one. I have seen markers employed to direct traffic.

Broadway has a dodgy crossover at 1&9. It would help if trees etc were removed so golfers could see each other sooner.

Alnmouth Village has a spectacular crossover at 7 & 3. The 3rd green miles below the 7th tee is a good line for the drive and many could be excused for thinking this is the 7th green.

Ciao

[James Reader]

At my home course, Huddersfield, the drive from the 1st crosses over the approach to the 9th.  I’ve never known it be a problem with anyone familiar with the course; members alternate quite happily. Visitors playing the 9th do sometimes forget to look right and let those in the 1st tee off but even then it doesn’t cause any significant delays.


A notable example I played recently is Stonehaven, where the 12th crosses both the 4th and 16th and the 1st and 18th also cross.  The 6-hole course at Castlefield must be hard to beat though….

[Jeff_Brauer]

It is hard to do in the US.....lawyers and all.


I always wanted to do this, and finally did on my renovation of Superior National up in Lutsen, MN, with the second and third holes.  The second is a par 3 over some spectacular roaring rapids.  Formerly, golfers drove across the creek to the next tee, but I realized I could put the back two tees near the back left of the second green, where any tee shots would cross somewhere over the river, eliminating any safety conflicts.  There are also trees that block any duck hook from 2 to the new 3 tees.


Von Hagge and Devlin did something similar at Gleneagles here in DFW, with two parallel water par 3 holes that cross somewhere over the water.  No safety issues there either.


I routed a few in China, but those courses got shut down in the government ban about 2016 or so.

[Terry Lavin]

It is hard to do in the US.....lawyers and all.

Not to be churlish, but let’s not celebrate new quirky routings over the safety of golfers. The volume of players, the use of carts and the responsibility of course architecture would surely seek to avoid this kind of crossover design.

[Pat Burke]

My grandfather ran Forest Park CC in Adams MA
When I was a kid


3/4
6/8
7/8


Had crossovers.


It was never a problem when I was there. But pretty wild

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I recall from the report of the outing a few adventerous golfers here had to Kinghorn a couple of years ago, that it had a few crossings. I enjoyed watching the 18 hole flyover so much, I watched it again:


https://youtu.be/qX47K2Ndl7M


The 5th crosses the 6th and the 9th crosses the 6th once again! Is that a record, a 255 yard hole crossed twice? Probably not.

[John Kavanaugh]

My imagination tells me that I teed off over a green at Sand Hills once. T or F?

[Blake Conant]

My imagination tells me that I teed off over a green at Sand Hills once. T or F?

The back tee for 5 plays over the back of the 4th green, but that’s about the only spot I can think of a crossover.


Old Barnwell’s 6th/17th will crossover. 6 a long par 4 down into the valley and 17 a par 3 along the ridge line.

[Dave Herrick]

As I recall the 1st and 18th at Royal Ashdown Forest cross somewhere around the midpoint of each fairway. I’ve played the course only a few times and it’s been quite a while, and I don’t recall thinking of the danger at the time, but a crossing at such a place would seem to be perilous.
The other crossing that comes to mind is that of the 6th and 18th at Hanover CC at Dartmouth College. The drives on the holes would cross over a gorge, and the angle of the crossing and proximity of the crossing to the respective teeing areas made the design fairly safe. Can’t speak to the risk, from topped drives, to walkers and runners using the trail that runs along the bottom of the gorge.
But alas, the world is now a safer place since Dartmouth in its wisdom has closed the course.

[Jim_Coleman]

If I remember correctly, the par-3 10th at Bel-Air plays over & across the 18th fairway.


   David: Your memory is off. The swinging bridge, which takes you to the 10th green from the 10th tee, is behind the 18th green.

[Will Lozier]

The Dr. did it at Alwoodley and I would say CPC has a couple tees where you buzz other greens!

[Rob Marshall]

Lahinch has a crossover that we realized for my only play there. We thought we were finding stray ball and it ended up being the guys playing on the 18th.

I almost mentioned that one in my opening post, but it would have disturbed the point about how it's easier to do crossovers on par-3 holes, because the traffic flow is more predictable.


The one at Lahinch is actually pretty dangerous . . . players coming off #18 tee are crossing the fairway of the 4th hole, and players on the 4th are hitting blindly over the Klondike sand dune toward random other groups.  And the holes are far enough apart in the routing that the traffic situation is unpredictable.

Huh? I had no idea there was a crossover at Lahinch between 4 and 18. Is it obvious and I was just oblivious?


I just looked at two course maps that show 18 crosses over the 4th and 5th. Don’t know how I missed that.

[Pete_Pittock]

Kinzua Hills in central Oregon has the 4th and 5th holes crossing. The course only has six holes.


Took a quick trip around GB&I using Steel's 1993 Classic Golf Links ... which has course layouts. The maps show these crossovers, which could have been changed or renumbered in the last thirtyish years
Crail 10-11; Elie 3-18; Brancaster 2-17, 4-5; Royal Jersey 5-7;
West Cornwall 5-7; Royal Porthcawl 1-18; Tenby 13-14;
Aberdovey 5-15; Conwy 4-17; Wallasey 8-15; Lahinch 5-18, 6-18.
Also TOC 7-11 in the opening post.


Would crossover holes have been less of a problem when the prevailing formats were twosomes and foursomes?

[Joe_Tucholski]

I just looked at two course maps that show 18 crosses over the 4th and 5th. Don’t know how I missed that.

Rob I have to admit I felt the same way when reading about a number of the courses listed that I've played.  Apparently, the crossovers work without impacting pace of play quite well if I don't realize it was occuring when playing.  I will say I played a number of them when the courses were nearly empty during the week days/afternoons.


Pennard was the first course I played in the UK and recall wondering how the tee shot on 4 would work when they had some sort of Friday corporate shotgun where they start with 2 groups on each tee...then I realized that's not a thing out there.

[mike_beene]

The Southern Hills PGA setup had several places that near crossovers occurred( 3 tee in front of 5 tee, 6 tee behind 5 green,13 tee over 12 green)

[Mike_Clayton]

A couple of months ago I walked Knole Park near Seven Oaks in Kent.
No one talks about it much but Abercromby did it and with that heritage it was bound to be good - and it is.


The tee shot at the 4th plays from a high hill straight across the 3rd fairway about 80 yards short of the 3rd green.

[Sean_A]

A couple of months ago I walked Knole Park near Seven Oaks in Kent.
No one talks about it much but Abercromby did it and with that heritage it was bound to be good - and it is.

The tee shot at the 4th plays from a high hill straight across the 3rd fairway about 80 yards short of the 3rd green.

I think this is a poor crossover because of the resulting target golf. It takes a very good drive to reach the corner because of all the trees down the left. I don't believe that tee shot in 4, is original. A map shows a tee set back and right from the 3rd green...a more sensible tee shot which also avoids the harsh climb to a tee.

Knole Park is a good course, worth seeking out.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Erewash Valley has 2 par 3's which are crossover holes in the Quarry

[Sean_A]

Erewash Valley has 2 par 3's which are crossover holes in the Quarry

The mushy quarry 😎.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Erewash Valley has 2 par 3's which are crossover holes in the Quarry

The mushy quarry 😎.

Ciao

I have heard that and they have 2 additional holes for an alternate course when the quarry is out of play

[Tim_Weiman]

The 4th tee on the Old Course at Ballybunion plays over the Par 3 3rd green. I never saw that being a problem.

[Edward Glidewell]

It is hard to do in the US.....lawyers and all.

Not to be churlish, but let’s not celebrate new quirky routings over the safety of golfers. The volume of players, the use of carts and the responsibility of course architecture would surely seek to avoid this kind of crossover design.

I was just thinking these would probably be fine in the context of a private club that's not overly busy, but at a packed public course it could cause serious problems (at least in the United States). I can't remember the name of the course now, but I've played a 27 hole public facility that didn't have crossovers but did have a lot of parallel fairways very close to each other, and I'd never go back. Felt like I needed a hard hat because balls were constantly flying in from other tee boxes with guys hitting hooks or slices.

[Adam Lawrence]

Adam

Interesting comment on Colt. MacKenzie clearly didn't have a problem with them either as there are cross over holes at both Alwoodley and Pitreavie. The interesting thing is that they were designed at a time when they were being designed out of a lot of existing courses and excluded from new ones, probably as a reaction to how prevalent they were in the old days.

Then just last night I was reading the new Braid book and there was a cross over hole on one of his later redesigns done after WWII.

Niall

Here's a 1914 article by Chick Evans in which he talks about Colt's views on parallel and crossing holes.

[Jeff_Mingay]

We recently created two crossovers at Wing Point G&CC, on Bainbridge Island, Washington. They've proven to work really well over the past few years, and have much improved a couple holes. A new tee at the par 4 third has golfers driving over the previous green, and another new tee lengthening the par 5 fifth crosses the line of play at the par 3 4th hole.