Pebble or Pasatiempo

[Steve Salmen]

I've played them both twice, and each within the last year. I scored the hole to hole match at 10-8 in favor of Pebble.

[Matt MacIver]

I can now reply having for the first time played both in 2022 on the same trip. Glad I did. PB was the one I was looking most forwarded to and it didn’t disappoint. Pasateimpo was more mysterious and I’m really glad I played it, with caddies. My vote, one one play, 8-2. 

[Mark_Fine]

Come on guys - really No disrespect meant but would any of us really do match play with Pebble Beach to decide if we should go play it???   That would be like doing some kind of comparison analysis if given the opportunity to decide if you should play a set of tennis on Center Court at Wimbledon or go watch a baseball game at Fenway Park or a soccer match at Wembley Stadium.  There is no decision to be made in any of those cases just like if you had one chance to play Pebble Beach.  If money is the hold back for some I understand, but outside of that, Pebble Beach is a bucket list course for EVERY golfer and even for many who don’t really even play golf. 

[Mark Pritchett]

Pebble Beach is a better value.

[Steve Salmen]

Come on guys - really [/size][/color][/size] No disrespect meant but would any of us really do match play with Pebble Beach to decide if we should go play it???

None taken, and no.  Just offering an opinion that was asked for.  Sorry if the answer offended you.[/color]

[Niall C]

I think this is almost disrespectful of Pebble.  Love Pasa's greens, however that is one of the biggest strengths of Pebble is their tiny greens,

Just shows, I'd have said by far the biggest knock on Pebble Beach is the greens. Nice views and all that but it is the routing of the ocean side holes that lift this above the level of just another good course with nice views. Imagine how much better a course PB would be if they had Pasatiempo type greens ?


Niall

[Mark_Fine]

I think Pebble would be worse with Pasatiempo’s greens.  Many of them are way over the top. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I did a match play comparison of the greens and Pebble won 4/3.

[Peter Flory]

The thing that always bugs me about Pebble is the small greens with all the space between the greens and the bunkers.  It may not be true in every case, but it just gives off the feeling that the greens were originally bigger and shrunk while the bunkers stayed in the same location.  The effect is that most of the shots that miss the green end up in the thick rough between the green and the traps.  It just seems like it would play better if the greens went all the way to the edges of the sand.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

There is an alternative version to your analysis.

I walked it twice several years ago and would like to think my appreciation of Pebble is well placed, without feeling the need to spend big $$$$ to tee it up there. 

P.S.  While I haven't putted on Pebbles bumpy greens, I have played Pasa and it would seem its greens are in a different class entirely. 

[John Kavanaugh]

You could have taken a hard right on eight and your little walk around would have meant as much. You need to chip to Pebble’s greens before you even care how they putt.

[Mark_Fine]

I am always looking for disconnects with greens (separations that don’t make sense between green surfaces and hazards), greens that have shrunk, hazards that have separated from the fill pads, and so on.  I don’t recall much of this at all at Pebble Beach and I have played there dozens and dozens of times over the years.  Also the conditions (at least in the last fifteen years) have been excellent and I can’t recall one round in that time frame that I would have called the greens bumpy.  Also, the small greens are part of the interest and challenge of Pebble Beach very much like they are at a course like Harbour Town.  Placing Pasa’s greens at Harbour Town would degrade that golf course just like it would at Pebble. That is not a diss on Pasatiempo’s greens though as I said some of them at today’s speeds are over the top.  Not every design needs wild and crazy putting surfaces to be great.  Shinnecock Hills for example does not have huge wild greens and it’s not a bad track


Outside of cost, there is not a single participant on this board who considers themselves a golfer that wouldn’t be thrilled to play a round a golf at Pebble Beach if given the chance.  I get this question all the time, “with all the great golf courses you have played, what is your favorite if you had to pick one to play for your last round?”  I have played the famous one next door to Pebble just as many times but I might still pick Pebble Beach.  It is that iconic and that special of an experience and that is a big part of what golf is all about. 


I have said this before, Pine Valley might be the best architectural design I have ever played, but it is not my favorite golf course.   

[Niall C]

Mark


In my one play at Pebble Beach (I also had one play at Pasatiempo on the same trip) I don't recall the greens at PB being particularly bumpy as Kalen alludes to but then I don't recall them being particularly good condition wise either which is perhaps understandable given the amount of play. I do recall though that there was a collar of what I'd call rough round the greens and between the greens and the greenside bunkers and I think that is what Peter was probably referring to. The effect of that was to accentuate the smallness and perhaps lack of contour of the greens.


In fairness Pasatiempo had something similar round their greens but at Pasatiempo size, shape and contour of the greens providing great interest, as much for the approach shots as the putting. Chipping, not so much because of the rough as I mentioned.


In contrast there isn't that level of interest in the greens at PB, which is not to say it is boring but that it's just not inspiring.


As for the notion that Pasatiempos greens don't stand up to "today's speeds", should the speed dictate the design or the design dictate the speed ?


Niall

[Rob Marshall]

The complaint about Poa being bumpy IMO is way overstated. Late in the day maybe. Under normal conditions no.

[Peter Flory]

I am always looking for disconnects with greens (separations that don’t make sense between green surfaces and hazards), greens that have shrunk, hazards that have separated from the fill pads, and so on.  I don’t recall much of this at all at Pebble Beach and I have played there dozens and dozens of times over the years. 

Some examples of what I mean.  It seems like there are a lot of 5 yard gaps or more with deep rough in between.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Playing Pebble is like meeting a famous person. You’ve seen the holes on tv and think you know them. But playing them changes everything … for the better.

[Andrew Carr]

In 2015, I was fortunate to have an extra day of golf before Cypress and although I have never played Pebble, I chose to play Pasa and don't regret it for a second.  It's such an amazing set of greens and Dr. Mackenzie thought enough of it to live there.


When/if Pebble ever restores the course, I'll be interested, but like with ANGC...there are so many other courses I'd rather see first.  I wouldn't turn down ANGC...but that's only because of the reported "experience" there...not because of the course as presented.