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John Challenger

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A few weeks ago, I played the new Lido at Sand Valley and I believe it is an extraordinary achievement. I was stunned by the scale and beauty of the golf course.

In 1922, Bernard Darwin agreed, "The Lido is the work of Mr. CB Macdonald, the creator of the National, and besides having a genius for golfing architecture, he must have the imagination of a poet and a seer....The course is long and very difficult, but it is full of interest and never tricky or fantastic....There are one or two holes, as is usual with Mr. Macdonald's creations, which are modeled on - not slavishly copied from - famous holes at home. There is an Alps from Prestwick and a Redan from North Berwick..."

It made me wonder what would be the next lost course to re-create? I know some purists will say "none." But, if you had to select one, what would it be?

I would vote for Country Club of Detroit in its original configuration. Most don't realize how highly this course was thought of at the beginning of the Golden Age, but the memory of it has been obscured by WW2, the Depression, the 1918 pandemic, and WW1. Tony Gholz recently sent me a photo of the routing which appeared in the Detroit Free Press but I haven't yet figured out how to post photos.

In December 1913, A.W. Tillinghast reported on a conversation with the golfer he seemed to mostly highly esteem: Harry Vardon.  "Vardon thinks that the courses in America cannot be compared with those in Great Britain. Probably, he says, the course at the National Club, at Detroit, is the best, while he puts that of the Mayfield Club, at Cleveland, second, with the Toronto course third."
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 02:23:49 PM by John Challenger »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2022, 12:25:38 PM »
I will go with Prince George's CC, also known as Beaver Dam CC. It was on the outskirts of DC in PG county. There is some question about its provenance, but probably the hands of Ross and Flynn touched the course. The club sold the land for a highway and hired Palmer to design a new course farther out of DC. I was a member of the new club and course. There were still some members that remember the old course. They never got over the sale and missed the the course greatly.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2022, 02:38:15 PM »
Whatever course Peter Flory has determined he should “recreate” using his computer graphics. Personally, I hope it is Mill Road or Overhills although Fresh Meadow would be cool.

Paul Jones

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Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2022, 02:48:33 PM »
Does anyone have the original design / photos of Deepdale?  The original was built around 1924 by CBM, then the Long Island Expressway made them move to current location in 1950s.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2022, 03:26:37 PM »
Really it has to be a course that was engineered on fairly flat land rather than one that depended on a lot of natural topography.


What examples of those kind of courses are there? And what made them great and/or identifiable (if not full of templates by MacRaynor)?

Peter Flory

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Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2022, 07:03:00 PM »
I have the front nine of Overhills pretty much done and it looks great to me.  This is the 7th hole after Ross's upgrades to the course.  Crazy center line series of bunkers (there is space before the 3rd one in the pic).  If you go right, you have to deal with the big convex knob. 


I can see the entire course sitting in the ground and it looks like a mashup of Pinehurst #2 and ANGC.


It would take some political voodoo and maybe $4MM.  Then you'd probably want to build some sort of clubhouse and/or cabins, etc.   







Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2022, 07:44:01 PM »
Mill Road Farm (1926-1942), Everett, Ill. A quarter-mile or so south of where Conway Farms is now. Bobby Jones called it one of the three best courses he'd played. Par of 72 was rarely broken. Highest-rated course in Chicago District, ahead of Medinah No. 3.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Adam G

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Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2022, 08:35:11 PM »
What about the original Sharp Park by MacKenzie



Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2022, 08:38:20 PM »
I’ve always been intrigued by the original Gibson Island Club aerials.

Jim O’Kane

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Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2022, 09:02:19 PM »
Mill Road Farm (1926-1942), Everett, Ill. A quarter-mile or so south of where Conway Farms is now. Bobby Jones called it one of the three best courses he'd played. Par of 72 was rarely broken. Highest-rated course in Chicago District, ahead of Medinah No. 3.


This.


I have always been fascinated by this place having grown up less than 10 miles from it and never knew it existed until long after I grew up and moved away.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2022, 09:20:00 PM »
"Don't you people have homes?"

MK stated his affection for Lido three decades ago, minimum. It took that long, and that much success, for Lido to happen. The others ain't happening, any time soon.

Ask Wex which is nex:
https://www.amazon.com/Missing-Links-Americas-Greatest-Courses/dp/1886947600


Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2022, 10:54:59 PM »
The Lido is the only one that I can think of where building it in another location made sense- because it was originally built upward off of a flat site. 

For the rest, I really don't think moving them to a new location would be feasible.  But there are a lot that could theoretically be reconstructed right back where they originally were. 

East Potomac is one that should actually happen.  Sharp Park is one that can't be rebuilt exactly because of the sea wall and other constraints, but it can get back a lot of what was lost.  Shawnee is one that I find interesting- although it would depend on them wanting to do it, which I have no idea. 

I have a back of the mind fantasy of trying to get them to revive the 3 hole loop (4- Cape, 5- Short, and 6- Hill to Carry/ Eden) at Ocean Links that is just sitting there under the bushes- maybe as a kids/ community course that could be maintained by Newport CC or something. 

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2022, 11:01:04 PM »
Beechtree
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2022, 12:09:23 AM »
Screw NA. My stock answer for this question is Princes. Some thought it was better than Sandwich and Deal.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2022, 06:39:24 AM »
Screw NA. My stock answer for this question is Princes. Some thought it was better than Sandwich and Deal.



There was some discussion about putting back the pre-war 18 at Prince's about ten or twelve years ago, but given the course is a for-profit business that was never going to happen. The recent heavy investment in the course just makes that more certain.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2022, 06:48:34 AM »
Screw NA. My stock answer for this question is Princes. Some thought it was better than Sandwich and Deal.
Ciao
So many GB courses were altered due to WW2 in particular, not just links courses either but inland ones too.
Didn’t Darwin write that Fowlers pre-WW2 Saunton was the best GB course at the time surpassing all The Open venues?
Atb

Stephen Britton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2022, 07:27:10 AM »
Does Gibson Island count as a lost course?


I'll also mention Overhills, Annapolis Roads, original Deepdale, Links Club, Timber Point
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2022, 09:30:15 AM »
What about the original Sharp Park by MacKenzie





MacKenzie certainly liked his target golf  ;D


Niall

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2022, 10:31:54 AM »
If we're screwing NA then the one I'd love to play and that just maybe, possibly could be redone is The Addington New. The council's plans for the course were never (fully) realised and its now a park.


For it to work The new powers that be at The Addington, would have to strike a deal with the Council and rebuild and run it for them. If they could offer the Council a share of revenue then... 
Let's make GCA grate again!

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2022, 10:47:31 AM »
Royal Links (Las Vegas)
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2022, 10:52:12 AM »
"Don't you people have homes?"

MK stated his affection for Lido three decades ago, minimum. It took that long, and that much success, for Lido to happen. The others ain't happening, any time soon.



Or alternatively, MK (Mike Keiser ?) is proving the concept can work and we are likely to get a rash of copycat developments (no pun intended) in the near future ?


Niall

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2022, 10:54:25 AM »
Peter Flory at it again!   I am endlessly inspired by Peter's story, how he literally changed the course of golf architecture in his spare time.   Thank you, Peter!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2022, 11:03:39 AM »
As Peter and I said, it is incredibly difficult (or expensive) to relocate any NLE course unless it was engineered with sand from a flat site.


Somewhere like The Addington New - with lots of elevation change - is near an impossibility.


The Lido was made to be re-made!

Jim O’Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2022, 11:04:13 AM »
Niall,


Would love to see Sharp Park restored to its former glory, even though present land conditions prevent an exacting effort.


I remember living in San Francisco in the late 80's and early 90's...I had quit the game for 10 years. My job was driving for Veteran's Cab in the city of SF. Some other drivers who befriended me came to my flat one day and noticed all my golf clubs. They convinced me to come out and play with them. They helped me realize and re-discover my love for this game and how to play just to have fun. Something I didn't know how to do.


We played Sharp Park once. It was a dump. Horrible conditions and seemingly erratic routing. I knew nothing of golf course architecture. I didn't even know this was one of the good Dr's courses. But one thing I did notice, and I told my other driver buddies, that this place must have been something back in the day.


I'd like to see that day, some day.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: After the Lido...What is the next best lost course in North America?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2022, 03:44:05 PM »
Screw NA. My stock answer for this question is Princes. Some thought it was better than Sandwich and Deal.



There was some discussion about putting back the pre-war 18 at Prince's about ten or twelve years ago, but given the course is a for-profit business that was never going to happen. The recent heavy investment in the course just makes that more certain.

Yep, I recall. I had high hopes. 😢

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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