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Ira Fishman

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2022, 11:21:21 AM »
John


It seems to me you are trying hard to show Colt's visit as a eureka moment for gca in the US and in the process almost discounting what went before. Can I suggest that you look up an old thread on here on the Oxford Cambridge Tour to the US in 1903. There is some great stuff from Bob Crosby and others on Low etc. That thread alone will show you the connections running between the two countries, that were long established before Colt arrived in the US.


Niall


I found the thread that Bob Crosby started in December 2008. It is a terrific and relevant read that ties together several themes and questions raised in the current thread.


Niall, thanks. I wish I knew how to post it here.


Ira

Tom_Doak

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2022, 11:44:54 AM »
Ira:


Just go to that thread and make a new post, and it should come back up to the top of the discussion board - unless threads from that far back are somehow blocked?

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2022, 11:52:23 AM »
Or go to the post, press and hold on the title and you’ll get to copy the link to the post which you can then paste here…
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ira Fishman

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John Challenger

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2022, 07:53:03 PM »
Thanks Niall and Ira. Here are my open questions and one more.

1. In the newspapers and golf magazines of pre-WW1, what courses either launched or started up from 1911 to 1914 were identified by experts of the era as the top golf courses in North America?

2. Shackelford said that Pine Valley was the benchmark golf course of the Golden Age. Do you agree or think that it might have been NGLA? What other new pre-WW1 courses would you put on a broader list?

3. What golf course (or courses) was the benchmark of the pre-WW1 Golden Age in Europe?

4. Do you think if C.B. MacDonald, the father of U.S. golf, had designed golf courses in pre-WW1 Europe that his courses would have been revered then and now?

5. Did Bramston really see the land for Pine Valley from the back of a train in 1903?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 07:25:56 AM by John Challenger »

John Challenger

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2022, 06:16:01 AM »
Thank you for this link to the August/September 1903 Oxcam vs US matches.

The evolution of ideas that led to Golden Age was in its opening stages. In the 2008 Bob Crosby thread, he says, "people were trying not terribly successful at first - to articulate the basic organizing principles of good golf design. And the starting point for those discussions was - quite naturally the great holes...people were trying to tease out what made them (the best holes) so good."

My contention, and it is reductionistic as is all history, is that the idea stage of golf course design evolution from the penal to the strategic phase, from the Victorian to the Golden Age, started in 1903 when John Low published "Concerning Golf" and laid out the new design ideas.

Bob Crosby says, "It was a landmark book. No one before or since (my italics) has expressed so clearly and forcefully the basic principles of strategic golf design." Perhaps, the next landmark book on golf course design, "The Links," was written by Robert Hunter in 1926 at the peak of the Golden Age. According to Cutten, "In 1912, Hunter was on family trip to Britain when he met Harry Colt; who, in turn, introduced him to Alister MacKenzie. On the same trip, Robert Hunter invested six important months in studying the great courses of the British Isles."

John Low and Harry Colt were as close as brothers. There was nobody Colt respected more than Low. If John Low was the father of the idea stage of the Golden Age, Harry Colt was the father of the golf course architecture phase of the Golden Age. CB Macdonald was the father too, but as you know I am working on the Colt case! 


Many of the 1903 Oxcam amateur golfers were the very same architects who won away the top architectural jobs from the penal-style professionals when the business of building new courses started back up in the British Isles later in the decade. These Oxcam architects were new wave and fundamentally Low-inspired.  The relationship between the British and the Americans was extremely contentious in the years 1903 to 1910. In 1904, one year after the 1903 Oxcam trip to the U.S., Walter Travis won the Amateur Championship. Travis felt he had been shabbily treated at Sandwich. Darwin later called Travis "a rat in a cage."  The contentiousness of 1903 turned into a full-blown American-British feud.

During the 1903 matches, The American editor of Golf, van Tassel Stuphen, was incensed at Horace Hutchinson for claiming that the Americans didn't show the proper sportsmanship. The British claimed the Americans were too serious and competitive with a lack of spirit for playing the game for the game's sake. Stuphen was also "apparently...imbued with some pretty heavy national pride" and felt the Oxcam players were unfairly chosen and far more experienced than the Americans. The British said they brought in a team that did not include their top amateurs, such as Ball and Hilton.The British trounced the Americans hurting their national pride. A few months later, in Golf Magazine, JAT Bramston of the Oxcam team presented a balanced but quite critical report on the American courses the team had played on and identified Myopia as the "finest wine." Sven posted the article above.

The bad feelings were still not resolved in 1910, seven years later, when the final stages of Travis' grudge battle over the Schenectady putter came to a head. The argument divided the Americans and broke up the friendship between Travis and CB Macdonald. Based on a January 1911 newspaper article posted by Mike Cirba in GCA, at the "sensational" annual USGA meeting, the delegates worked out a compromise agreeing to adhere to the R&A rules of golf without the rule on the "form and make" of clubs, which allowed use of the Schenectady putter in the U.S.. At the meeting, before the official board debate about the putter, the slate of officers was "rushed through" and Silas Strawn of Chicago was elected president.

Earlier, in the "room where it happened" at a luncheon in the office of Silas Strawn, the lawyer, the compromise was worked out. My speculation about what happened is this: Led by Silas Strawn, Chicago and Western delegates joined with Travis-led Easterners in a majority coalition and agreed to support Travis' position on the putter and to elect Strawn without any debate. Travis felt vindicated, though it seems like he never gave up his grudge for the British. CB Macdonald was enraged. Again, he was thwarted: he was not elected president, and not even as an element of the compromise. The board did line the resolution with statements of reliance on the R&A as the ruling body of golf.

In the official board meeting, the Garden City delegate, perhaps a Travis ally, put up a public show of support for CB Macdonald's position to adhere to the R&A rules and the Chicago delegate from Homewood provided a rationale for the board not to ban the Schenectady putter. Macdonald had spent his life building relationships in the British Isles and with the members of the R&A. In a few years, it would be time to put aside toxic nationalism and petty argument.

Is it possible that the enmity between American and British golfers that started up in the 1903 Oxcam matches and that broke into open recrimination during the 1904 Amateur Championship, never dissipated from 1905 to 1907 and turned into a flat-out war from 1908 to 1911 over the Schenectady putter? Was CB Macdonald, who perhaps was more of a diplomat than he is given credit for, the one left holding the bag to smooth over the damage with the R&A and the Oxcam community? Who were the allies of Walter Travis? Perhaps, Donald Ross and H.H. Barker, and many others, in the golf professional world. As Ross and Barker sought to build their careers into golf courses, Walter Travis was an essential connector because of the marketing value of his publication, American Golfer. Who were the most powerful amateurs in the East on Travis' side?

In this era, identities were so tribal and the divisions so intense. I was reading a history of Onwentsia and the author, David Sweet, quotes Hobart Chatfield-Taylor who wrote, "That year of  '96 (1896) was, in the parlance of the streets, the 'fiercest' year golf has known in the West. 'Chicago Society' was divided by the rival camps of 'Wheaton' and "Onwentsia.'...feelings rans so high that families were divided, and the members of the rival clubs were scarcely on speaking terms." They were competing for the golf championship of the West.The lines between people in the golf world, the splits and feuds, and the fierce competition was everywhere, and it wasn't just on the golf course.

Amateur vs Professional: This split didn't begin to heal until Walter Hagen and Inverness in 1920. Chick Evans and Francis Ouimet who grew up as caddies were caught in the middle and fought their entire lives for their amateur status and dignity. The savage wrangle over the definition of an amateur and a professional carried on for years.

England vs Scotland: In his new book, Stephen Proctor reverently describes how John Ball's wins in 1890 brought this golf rivalry of the 1880s and 1890s to a head.

England vs U.S.: The 1903 Oxcam visit, Travis' 1904 win, and the Schenectady putter controversy.

North America vs British Isles: Ouimet's win was as monumental in 1913 as John Ball's in 1890.

East vs West and the USGA vs the WGA. CB Macdonald vs Walter Travis. Walter Travis vs Devereaux Emmet. Walter Travis vs Max Behr. American Golfer vs Golf Illustrated. It seems like it was the competitive and wildly obstinate expat, Walter Travis, who owned the bully pulpit, American Golfer, not CB MacDonald, the USGA's diplomat to the R&A, who always fought the hardest and was the most unrelenting.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 08:26:56 AM by John Challenger »

John Challenger

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2022, 06:43:29 AM »
In 1934, Alister MacKenzie wrote about how the transition from the Victorian and penal era to the strategic era, which we now define as the Golden Age, occurred.

"In the old days courses were designed by prominent players...In the Victorian era fifty years ago, almost all new golf courses were planned by the professionals, and were incidentally, amazingly bad...There was an entire absence of strategy, interest and excitement...The first person to depart from these principles was the late Mr. John L. Low."

"John L. Low wrote a book over thirty years ago entitled Concerning Golf...and it is still the most illuminating, instructive, and original book written on the subject."

"Mr. H.S. Colt, who was a great friend of John L. Low, held similar ideas. When he was secretary of Sunningdale, he put the ideas into practice, completely revolutionizing (my italics) this famous course. He altered the long holes and changed entirely the short holes. In so doing he added the necessary strategy and interest, turning it from a dull insipid course into one which was as inspired as the old one had been tedious."


There were two main strands in the idea stage of the Golden Age in the British Isles as it pertained to golf: the arts & crafts movement led by Horace Hutchinson, whose platform was Country Life, and the strategic golf course design revolution led by John Low. It was Harry Colt who first grafted the two together in practice and created the new rose.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 08:36:30 AM by John Challenger »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2022, 06:51:50 AM »
In 1934, Alister MacKenzie wrote about how the transition from the Victorian and penal era to the strategic and arts & crafts era, which we now define as the Golden Age, occurred.

"In the old days were designed by prominent players...In the Victorian era fifty years ago, almost all new golf courses were planned by the professionals, and were incidentally, amazingly bad...There was an entire absence of strategy, interest and excitement...The first person to depart from these principles was the late Mr. John L. Low."

"John L. Low wrote a book over thirty years ago entitled Concerning Golf...and it is still the most illuminating, instructive, and original book written on the subject."

"Mr. H.S. Colt, who was a great friend of John L. Low, held similar ideas. When he was secretary of Sunningdale, he put the ideas into practice, completely revolutionizing (my italics) this famous course. He altered the long holes and changed entirely the short holes. In so doing he added the necessary strategy and interest, turning it from a dull insipid course into one which was as inspired as the old one had been tedious."


Dr. MacKenzie, to be fair, was not one to under-state his case. I quote an article by Low from the Athletic News in December 1901, on Sunningdale:

"Little is required to make the course one of the best in England. The little, however, includes the very important matter of the placing of new hazards and the alteration of some of the teeing grounds. The Sunningdale Club have been more than fortunate in securing the services of a golfer so well qualified as Mr. H. S. Colt for this difficult work. No one in England is better able to judge the merits of a golf course and see where they may be magnified, or to find the faults and make the course free of them, than the secretary of the Sunningdale Club."

I would also be interested to hear from the MacKenzie researchers if they know when the Doctor first saw Sunningdale.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 11:19:45 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2022, 11:11:49 AM »
John


I admire your enthusiasm even though it's hard to hold down a full-time job and keep up with your posts at the same time !


I should say to you in relation to the questions you pose in post 79 that I'm Scottish and living in Scotland and that is where my prime interest and knowledge lies, so can't really address the US-centric stuff. I will say about CBM however that his idea of copying the best holes was fairly regularly commented on in the UK golfing press. Most of the time, perhaps all the time ?, he was ridiculed for trying to build exact replicas when in reality he was copying ideas. So how would a UK course of his have fared ? I suspect after initial scepticism and assuming the course was any good he'd have got due recognition. Mind you if he built it prior to WWI it would have been comprehensively tinkered with if it was still around.


Niall   

Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2022, 11:19:29 AM »
Adam


I don't have a ready answer to your question on when Mac first saw Sunningdale, which I assume he did at some point, and I'm not sure there is a ready answer. If I was to guess I'd suggest it was some time between meeting Colt at Alwoodley and the start of WWI ?


Niall

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2022, 11:23:47 AM »
Adam

I don't have a ready answer to your question on when Mac first saw Sunningdale, which I assume he did at some point, and I'm not sure there is a ready answer. If I was to guess I'd suggest it was some time between meeting Colt at Alwoodley and the start of WWI ?

Niall


That would be my guess too, and if true begs the question of how he could possibly have known that the course was 'dull and insipid' at the outset.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2022, 06:23:27 PM »
Adam


The obvious answer as I imagine you will agree is that he was boosting his pal while exhibiting his consistent bias against professional golfers as architects. There did tend to be a good bit of the old pals act amongst the Oxcam set when writing about each others work, and also a fair degree of snobbery towards professional golfers.


Niall

Michael George

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2022, 10:00:24 AM »
Now you're telling me what my own influences are?  C'mon, man.
I believe the biggest influence on Ben Crenshaw was C.B. Macdonald.  That's whose work he talks about the most.
Both Bill and I would credit Pete Dye for teaching us how to build golf courses, but I don't think either of us would say he was the biggest influence, stylistically.  For me, it was Alister MacKenzie.  For Bill, it is Perry Maxwell.  For that matter, I heard Pete more than once describe the influence of Donald Ross on his work, and also Seth Raynor and MacKenzie and Maxwell and even Bill Langford, but I never heard him mention Colt as an influence.
That's not to say we don't admire (and borrow from) the works of many different architects, from Old Tom Morris to Mr. Dye.  We do.  And our work has evolved over time; mine looks less like MacKenzie's than it used to.  But if you grew up in America, Harry Colt is probably not going to be your main influence.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom - I don't profess to know all of your influences, but I do think you underestimate the influence that Colt had on you.  In the past, you would regularly discuss the importance of the Dreer Award and seeing the great clubs in Great Britain and Ireland on your career.  It is hard to argue that, along with Old Tom Morris, Harry Colt had the greatest impact on golf in Great Britain and Ireland.  Personally, much of the work that I see from Bill Coore and yourself often reminds me of the origins of golf in these countries.  It is why I enjoy it so much. 

While we debate the most important architects in US history, I don't think there is much debate in Great Britain and Ireland, as Old Tom Morris and Harry Colt kind of run away with it......unless you want to credit God with some designs!  And while we laud about the golden age of architecture in the US, it emanated from Great Britain and Ireland.  MacDonald, MacKenzie, Ross and others all directly pointed to the influence of the courses in these countries on their work.  Hell, the MacDonald templates mostly derive from there!  And doing so naturally goes back to Old Tom Morris and Harry Colt.   

Obviously, your career has spanned a long time and I am sure today all that you say is true.  Who is anyone to tell another what influenced them or not.  I am sure that MacKenzie had the largest influence on you, as you say.  So I apologize for being presumptuous.  However, even MacKenzie started with and learned from Colt!     
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 10:03:02 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mike Bodo

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2022, 11:31:27 AM »
It is hard to argue that, along with Old Tom Morris, Harry Colt had the greatest impact on golf in Great Britain and Ireland.
Huh, I thought James Braid held that distinction?
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

John Challenger

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #89 on: November 16, 2022, 08:01:33 PM »
Reading MacKenzie's 1934 writings in "The Spirit of St. Andrews." He seemed to emerge from the idea stage of the Golden Age at nearly the same time as Colt. He had a hard time breaking through and getting recognized. As a self-proclaimed design "revolutionary," he put strategy, as defined by John Low, first. He believed the penal approach of the golf professional architects was outdated and dull. I think it was less a case of snobbery and more one of rejection. In those pre-WW1 transition years, the professionals struggled to prevent their penal approach to golf course design from becoming obsolete.

In regard to landscape design, MacKenzie's philosophy seems to have been less based on, especially in the early days, the wish to create beautiful arts-and-crafts parkland jewels that would be showcased in Country Life. Despite the fact that he went to medical school at Cambridge and was a member of the R&A (Colt's introduction), and the fact that his career breakthrough occurred when his new hole design was selected by Country Life in 1914, MacKenzie came into the Golden Age down a parallel but distinct route.

The pre WW1 Country Life competition of 1914 was a English/U.S. collaboration and alliance between the Oxcam and R&A leaders (Horace Hutchinson, Bernard Darwin, and Herbert Fowler) and the diplomatic-minded C.B. MacDonald, who donated the grand prize.

MacKenzie's landscape design philosophy was more based on his study of camouflage in the Boer War. They (the Boers) made "the best use of the natural features of the landscape, and by constructing artificial fortifications (landforms) indistinguishable from natural objects." Just like he later did of St. Andrews, MacKenzie says "I made a close study of the subject."  He had a flash of insight that changed his life. "It struck me than inland courses could be improved in a similar manner by imitation of the features so characteristic of sand dune courses."

Returning to his home course at Leeds in 1905 "not only was little notice taken of my ideas, but when my name was suggested as captain of the club, the committee refused to nominate me, because they said I had such weird ideas regarding golf courses that I would want to alter theirs, bringing in a lot of strange, newfangled ideas which must be wrong, as not a single professional in the world agreed with me."
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 08:47:39 PM by John Challenger »

Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2022, 05:46:16 AM »
It is hard to argue that, along with Old Tom Morris, Harry Colt had the greatest impact on golf in Great Britain and Ireland.
Huh, I thought James Braid held that distinction?


and here was me thinking it was the introduction of the railways !


Niall

Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2022, 06:37:03 AM »
John


On your suggestion on the ideas stage, can I suggest you go back and have a read of Willie Park's book from 1896. Like Low his book is generally an instruction book and while both books have 12 or 13 chapters in each case only one deals with elements of design. Park's writing is perhaps a little stilted in comparison to Low's neat turn of phrase but there is some good stuff in there and some similar ideas to Low. What makes Low's book stand out is the explicit mention of playing a shot with a view to how it affects the next shot. In other words strategy. Not only that but it shows from that how the design of the course influences strategy.


Note however that Low didn't invent strategy. Players were already intuitively or indeed consciously making strategic decisions on play. Low wrote about that and linked it with the design of the course or specifically the placing of bunkers. You could argue that the likes of Park in his book implicitly did that, and I'd probably make that argument, but Low was I think the first to explicitly do that. That's what makes his book a landmark IMHO.


However my overall point here is that Concerning Golf wasn't the start of the ideas stage. The conversation on course design had started long before then.


Niall   

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #92 on: November 17, 2022, 07:04:16 AM »
John

On your suggestion on the ideas stage, can I suggest you go back and have a read of Willie Park's book from 1896. Like Low his book is generally an instruction book and while both books have 12 or 13 chapters in each case only one deals with elements of design. Park's writing is perhaps a little stilted in comparison to Low's neat turn of phrase but there is some good stuff in there and some similar ideas to Low. What makes Low's book stand out is the explicit mention of playing a shot with a view to how it affects the next shot. In other words strategy. Not only that but it shows from that how the design of the course influences strategy.

Note however that Low didn't invent strategy. Players were already intuitively or indeed consciously making strategic decisions on play. Low wrote about that and linked it with the design of the course or specifically the placing of bunkers. You could argue that the likes of Park in his book implicitly did that, and I'd probably make that argument, but Low was I think the first to explicitly do that. That's what makes his book a landmark IMHO.

However my overall point here is that Concerning Golf wasn't the start of the ideas stage. The conversation on course design had started long before then.

Niall   


Niall -- yeah, I'm interested to see more research on when the conversations about strategic golf started. I had this discussion with Bob Crosby a few weeks ago. ‘Concerning Golf’ was a distillation of what Low had been saying for a couple of years, and there are hints of this in his columns in 'Athletic News'. Bob's belief is that criticism of the ‘Victorian' school of design started mid 1890s. Which would make sense: new theories are formulated first by finding things wrong with existing theories. I have a piece of Colt writing from 1894 that reads very Victorian (except in the matter of blind holes).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #93 on: November 17, 2022, 07:27:06 AM »
Adam,


Agreed. Historians do tend to concentrate on the writings of Oxcam set to the detriment of the likes of Park firstly because their writings were well written and more abundant, and secondly because the Oxcam set were dismissive of professionals who designed courses and that seems to have been taken as being an accurate reflection of what was being designed rather than perhaps an underlying snobbish attitude towards the working class.


The other thing, newspaper and magazine articles do tend to get over-looked when there is a wealth of good stuff in there.


Niall

John Challenger

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #94 on: November 17, 2022, 07:32:40 AM »
Thank you Niall. Will read Park's book. Seems like I read somewhere that it was very similar to Hutchinson's writings at the time. MacKenzie does seem to criticize Park's efforts at Sunningdale. You might be right about the snobbery but as I was reading his book, it seemed to me that MacKenzie who came from the north wasn't quite part of the artsy London crowd. When he came back from the Boer War armed with his new ideas about landforms, he felt rejected by the golf professionals and his subsequent negativity towards them was more in anger.

He says, "Looking back, it is amazing how seriously we took our disputes. We fought over them not only at committee meetings but every time we met. The fate of the British Empire could have been at stake. When the Great War came, how trifling all these things seemed....The trouble in those early days was that all golfers except a very small handful of pioneers belonged to the penal school."

"Twenty years ago (1914), owing to the influence of John L. Low, and other pioneers, new British golf courses were designed by men of education, the professional player having entirely dropped out of the picture. Today (1934), owing to intriguing advertisements, professional players...are again beginning to plan golf courses....But if one analyzes these recent courses there is a complete absence of variety, strategy, and interest, and a failure in planning them to make the best use of the natural features."  He does mention "other pioneers" and maybe Park was one of them.

Also, MacKenzie was an average golfer. Maybe he felt some insecurity around professionals. He relates a story where a friend says this to him!!  "You are just off to Australia to lay out courses. For God's sake don't let them see you play or you will never get another job."
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 07:38:54 AM by John Challenger »

Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #95 on: November 17, 2022, 07:38:31 AM »
John


The other thing I meant to add, at least in a UK context, is that professional golfers as designers didn't simply go away after 1903. Park continued to be a fairly busy architect and then Braid soon got in to his stride. You also had the likes of Taylor/Hawtree, Willie Fernie, Tom Williamson etc. I don't have any evidence to hand but I think it would think that most courses designed or altered up to WWI and perhaps even WWI were probably done so by professional golfers.


You should also note that a lot of work was done just after 1903 as the effects of the Haskell led to a lot of course changes.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #96 on: November 17, 2022, 07:54:29 AM »
John


We crossed posts.


Re MacKenzie and the artsy crowd. You've clearly been reading Tommy Mac's Arts & Craft essays and while they are quite interesting to read about the Arts & Crafts movement generally they are, in my opinion, complete nonsense in terms the central idea that the movement had a bearing on golf course design. Just because Horace took a couple of Arts lessons it doesn't really prove much of anything. Again that's just my opinion.


Neither was it geography that brought these guys together, unless you count Oxford, Cambridge and St Andrews.


With regards criticism of Park's work at Sunningdale, Colt was compelled to write to Park and express his opinion of how good his work at Sunningdale was and giving him permission to use the letter in any way he saw fit, which Park did by having it published in Golf Illustrated (?). I seem to recall Adam posting a copy of it on another thread recently.


If you get a copy either of the Braid books (Braid and his 400 courses and the Divine Fury of Braid) they have listings of his courses which generally date from 1900 on. And as I said in a previous post, he wasn't the only professional golfer designing courses.


Anyway, back to the day job. More tonight.


Niall

Sean_A

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #97 on: November 17, 2022, 08:41:14 AM »
One spect about these debates is TOC. Certainly by no later than 1900 and more likely by 1890, that course was very similar to what exists today. If TOC is strategic masterpiece today, it must also be true that this was the case 125 years ago. The Oxbridge set used TOC as a model of design...no? It wasn't like they invented strategic architecture. There were examples of the concept spread about. I guess what I am saying is the for the guys who were into this stuff, the ideas were floating around pre-1900. I agree that Park Jr's and Low's works (I would add Hutchinson's 1901 Golf Illsutrated article) articulated the concepts in a neat package. Just as there is no aha moment in US gca, the same is true of GB&I gca except that TOC existed. What I find very interesting in all of this, is that CBM didn't harp on strategic concepts in the same way other well informed and educated archies did. When CBM breaks down his ideal course it comes out nearly 70% on turf, soil and undulations. CBM had no qualms about a penal hole if it was challenging and exciting....in other words good golf. 

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Adam Lawrence

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #98 on: November 17, 2022, 08:53:37 AM »
John is, I think, abundantly correct on MacKenzie. Though he was friendly with Colt after 1907, and though he was a Cambridge man, he was NOT part of the Oxbridge ‘set’ that clustered around Low, Colt, Arthur Froome, Alison etc. Throughout his life MacKenzie was an outsider: born in Yorkshire but saw himself as Scottish (though he never lived in Scotland); not that great a golfer -- Low, Colt, Alison were all among the elite of amateur golfers in Britain; and imo a bit of a chip on his shoulder (we Yorkshiremen are often characterised as chippy  :) ).
Adam Lawrence

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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

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Niall C

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Re: Old Elm, Harry Colt and the Start of the Golden Age in America
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2022, 09:15:25 AM »
Sean,


The last significant change (I'm not counting adding back tees, the slight flattening of part of a green or indeed Sir Michael Bonallacks ultimately failed attempt to introduce trees to the course) was the bunkers put down the right side of the course on the way out which was done at the suggestion of Low. That itself was a reaction to the removal of the gorse that had widened the playing corridor. Clearly wide fairways and gorse removal was not the type of Victorian architecture that Low approved of.


Width didn't seem to be a concern for Park which makes you wonder if a lot of modern architects have more in common with him than they do with Low ?


Niall