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Steve Lapper

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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

David Wuthrich

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Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2022, 09:39:13 AM »
Thanks for sharing, can't wait to see it!

Michael Chadwick

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Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2022, 12:40:55 PM »
This is more of an observation and question, not a criticism. I can't think of another course that has had so much marketing and publicity before opening. Am I wrong to be intuiting that?


I understand the push from Cabot. They need buy-in across different levels. Residential ownership, memberships, and resort. I find it fascinating, and maybe it's an indicator of the increased stakes, capital, and competition throughout the national club niche of course development. 
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2022, 02:13:29 PM »
This is more of an observation and question, not a criticism. I can't think of another course that has had so much marketing and publicity before opening. Am I wrong to be intuiting that?


I understand the push from Cabot. They need buy-in across different levels. Residential ownership, memberships, and resort. I find it fascinating, and maybe it's an indicator of the increased stakes, capital, and competition throughout the national club niche of course development.


I couldn't disagree more. The marketing and publicity for St. Lucia is sedate, when compared to the efforts expended for a Dumbarnie Links, Big Cedar Lodge  a Streamsong, or Dormie's GrayBull in Neb., Sweetens Cove, etc...


FWIW...I think Cabot has sold most, if not all the residential sites available.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2022, 05:39:29 PM »
This is more of an observation and question, not a criticism. I can't think of another course that has had so much marketing and publicity before opening. Am I wrong to be intuiting that?


I understand the push from Cabot. They need buy-in across different levels. Residential ownership, memberships, and resort. I find it fascinating, and maybe it's an indicator of the increased stakes, capital, and competition throughout the national club niche of course development.


I couldn't disagree more. The marketing and publicity for St. Lucia is sedate, when compared to the efforts expended for a Dumbarnie Links, Big Cedar Lodge  a Streamsong, or Dormie's GrayBull in Neb., Sweetens Cove, etc...


FWIW...I think Cabot has sold most, if not all the residential sites available.


Sweetens has had a lot of ink since it opened, but it certainly didn’t in the run up to opening. I think I was the only journalist to write about before opening; I know I was the first to see it.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2022, 07:22:12 PM »
This is more of an observation and question, not a criticism. I can't think of another course that has had so much marketing and publicity before opening. Am I wrong to be intuiting that?



To be fair, this has been true of most new courses for the past few years.  Lido certainly had a lot of press for a private club in Wisconsin.  There's already been more advance hype for the new short course at Streamsong than there was for the first two courses, and they don't even know when they're going to build it.


It's a function of the players involved.  There are fewer new courses being built, and all of the media are dying to write about them and to get any sort of "exclusive".  And the few developers are all key advertisers, so the media bend over backwards to give them extra attention.


One feature of the St. Lucia marketing is that they've pushed out a lot of CGI images as if the course was fully grassed, before anything had been planted.  I guess that's partly a function of how good the CGI stuff is getting.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2022, 01:46:26 AM »
This is more of an observation and question, not a criticism. I can't think of another course that has had so much marketing and publicity before opening. Am I wrong to be intuiting that?


I understand the push from Cabot. They need buy-in across different levels. Residential ownership, memberships, and resort. I find it fascinating, and maybe it's an indicator of the increased stakes, capital, and competition throughout the national club niche of course development.




From an international perspective I'd tend to agree.  I heard of the other courses through golf 'media'. I heard of Cabot St Lucia on here AND from an advert in the weekend FT.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2022, 07:22:55 AM »
Can't recall hearing much either on Dumbarnie before it opened, or at least this far ahead of its opening but that might be my bad memory.


Niall

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2023, 05:55:20 PM »
Cabot St Lucia debuts at #76 on the Golf Magazine Global top 100

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2023, 07:00:20 PM »
Cabot St Lucia debuts at #76 on the Golf Magazine Global top 100



Only eight places behind The Lido !?!  :-X

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2023, 07:43:54 PM »
Am I the only one that finds a course that has not opened already entering the ratings ?
Is it possible that the required number of raters to justify a placement is possible ?
Just questions

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2023, 09:59:57 AM »
Am I the only one that finds a course that has not opened already entering the ratings ?
Is it possible that the required number of raters to justify a placement is possible ?
Just questions


GOLF Magazine only requires ten raters to play a course for it to be ranked.


Many of these new courses have special events and invite ten raters to play before the course is open to the public.  It shouldn't happen, but the magazine itself is setting those things up.  That's how much they each want to "scoop" the other magazines and be the first to rank a new course highly.  They don't really care if it looks dumb 5-10 years later, nobody will notice.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2023, 10:23:15 AM »
Am I the only one that finds a course that has not opened already entering the ratings ?
Is it possible that the required number of raters to justify a placement is possible ?
Just questions


GOLF Magazine only requires ten raters to play a course for it to be ranked.


Many of these new courses have special events and invite ten raters to play before the course is open to the public.  It shouldn't happen, but the magazine itself is setting those things up.  That's how much they each want to "scoop" the other magazines and be the first to rank a new course highly.  They don't really care if it looks dumb 5-10 years later, nobody will notice.


Except Jonathan Cummings.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2023, 10:31:18 AM »
Am I the only one that finds a course that has not opened already entering the ratings ?
Is it possible that the required number of raters to justify a placement is possible ?
Just questions


GOLF Magazine only requires ten raters to play a course for it to be ranked.


Many of these new courses have special events and invite ten raters to play before the course is open to the public.  It shouldn't happen, but the magazine itself is setting those things up.  That's how much they each want to "scoop" the other magazines and be the first to rank a new course highly.  They don't really care if it looks dumb 5-10 years later, nobody will notice.


Tom,


  Do you proactively caution your clients against this practice? If not, why not? If so, why do you think they ignore the advice?  It does seem as if it happens amongst them rather consistently.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2023, 10:47:05 AM »
How did UK Golf Guy scoop the magazine itself?
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2023, 12:44:30 PM »
I find this quote particularly interesting.

"But according to Coore, the most influential person was Jim Barger of Oncore Principals, who serves as the general contractor and construction manager for the Point Hardy Golf Club. Without Barger’s involvement, Coore and Crenshaw likely would have turned down the job.
As Coore recalls, when he and Crenshaw first visited the site and saw the extreme elevation changes, they knew that a lot of earth would need to be moved to make several of the holes playable. “It’s a hugely complicated job, and we knew it was beyond our experience and our abilities,” Coore says, referencing all of the technical work involved in constructing golf holes on such an extreme site.
“There’s a million things ancillary to doing this job,” Crenshaw adds. “It’s not just going out and shaping [earth] where we see it. It’s the infrastructure and how things work and drainage. It’s a lot.”
Fortunately, Jim Barger brought decades of Caribbean work experience, which meant he not only had the confidence to handle a project defined by extreme changes in elevation, but he also had connections to easily get the right supplies and to hire an equally experienced and talented team that would handle the heavy lifting on—and in—the ground. “More than anything,” says Coore, “he would manage the big aspects of the construction and that gave us the freedom to work in our space of making the land playable for golf.”

No wonder they are successful. They know what they know and are humble enough to admit what they don't know.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2023, 01:14:07 PM »

Tom,

  Do you proactively caution your clients against this practice? If not, why not?


Steve:


I’m not the police, and have no interest in trying to be.  Michael asked how this happens, and I answered.


My clients rarely listen when I ask them to hold back on their self-promotion before the course is ready.  They all want the tee sheets to be full asap.  And the magazines seem eager to help, especially for their bigger advertisers.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2023, 01:26:45 PM »
P.S.  What I don’t do, is attend such events.  The only thing I do to help promote my courses is to invite a bunch of friends to the Renaissance Cup every year on one of our newer courses.  We just had it at The Lido - but that was after the voting for this GOLF Mag ranking was complete, FWIW.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2023, 02:10:43 PM »
My clients rarely listen when I ask them to hold back on their self-promotion before the course is ready.  They all want the tee sheets to be full asap.  And the magazines seem eager to help, especially for their bigger advertisers.
More important than the tee sheet at many of these locations is the real estate sales.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2023, 04:53:34 AM »
How did UK Golf Guy scoop the magazine itself?
Yeah Buck I don't see the new rankings anywhere yet either.  Russian hack?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2023, 03:00:56 PM »
How did UK Golf Guy scoop the magazine itself?


Someone found a copy of the magazine and sent me a photograph of the list. It was all quite mundane really.

I wrote some thoughts about the ranking here

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/golf-blog/2023-golf-magazine-world-top100

I hope they put it on their website soon as I'm interested to read Ran's thoughts on some of the movements compared to my conjecture!

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2023, 05:18:32 PM »
How did UK Golf Guy scoop the magazine itself?


Someone found a copy of the magazine and sent me a photograph of the list. It was all quite mundane really.

I wrote some thoughts about the ranking here

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/golf-blog/2023-golf-magazine-world-top100

I hope they put it on their website soon as I'm interested to read Ran's thoughts on some of the movements compared to my conjecture!

Surprising in the online world they would embargo their own clicks -- well done (didn't know you were on here).
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2023, 06:03:18 PM »

'Surprising in the online world they would embargo their own clicks -- well done (didn't know you were on here).'



Cheers Buck, they seem quite wedded to going with the print version first before putting the content online. I assume it's a way to encourage the print subscriptions.


The magazines over here in the UK are getting better with getting them online at the same time as print but it has taken a while.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2023, 05:55:50 AM »
How did UK Golf Guy scoop the magazine itself?


Someone found a copy of the magazine and sent me a photograph of the list. It was all quite mundane really.

I wrote some thoughts about the ranking here

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/golf-blog/2023-golf-magazine-world-top100

I hope they put it on their website soon as I'm interested to read Ran's thoughts on some of the movements compared to my conjecture!


« Last Edit: October 27, 2023, 02:46:54 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nice Article on Cabot St.Lucia project
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2023, 06:16:38 AM »
How did UK Golf Guy scoop the magazine itself?


Someone found a copy of the magazine and sent me a photograph of the list. It was all quite mundane really.

I wrote some thoughts about the ranking here

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/golf-blog/2023-golf-magazine-world-top100

I hope they put it on their website soon as I'm interested to read Ran's thoughts on some of the movements compared to my conjecture!



Would that "someone" be a UK-based industry-insider panelist whose proximity to the 8AM crew might also provide an incentive to skew his vote to certain clubs on the World List???


No. It was a member of the public who has no connection whatsoever with the publisher. They literally found it and sent a picture on.


I think some of the raters found out the results when they saw my tweet. Anyway, I'm more interested in reading what Ran has to say in the magazine, I think it goes on sale any day now.

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