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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Japanese Double-Greens
« on: October 13, 2022, 07:51:35 PM »
In this case I mean having 2 greens on each hole, as the PGA Tour Zozo course does this week and many Japanese golf courses do as well. I always understood that one green had winter grass and one had summer grass. But this week, they're playing both greens on one par 3, and a commentator said that it was because of the "heavy play" that they had two greens they could alternate between on each hole. And they certainly don't look like different kinds of grasses.


Any information?

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2022, 08:04:47 PM »
In this case I mean having 2 greens on each hole, as the PGA Tour Zozo course does this week and many Japanese golf courses do as well. I always understood that one green had winter grass and one had summer grass. But this week, they're playing both greens on one par 3, and a commentator said that it was because of the "heavy play" that they had two greens they could alternate between on each hole. And they certainly don't look like different kinds of grasses.


Any information?


My home course in Korea had two greens on each hole and they were the same grass.  They alternated the greens throughout the week.  From a maintenance standpoint it certainly seemed easier to keep the greens in good condition.  I think it's just a thing they did/do in Asia.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2022, 12:23:27 AM »
An extremely unique cultural phenomenon. Micah Woods at the Asian Turfgrass Center likes to write about double greens, korai (zoysia) greens, etc. in his part of the world:


https://www.asianturfgrass.com/post/grass-species-and-the-2-green-system/


As far as managing wear and tear, I definitely feel that two greens per hole is an odd way to do it, and having the same square footage as with the two greens in a single green would be far more optimal. I can tell you that two greens per golf hole makes nothing easier from a maintenance perspective.


But I do love the uniqueness of it.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2022, 12:30:17 AM »
Here is a previous thread not specific to Japanese courses (and another even older thread linked within).
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2022, 03:05:29 AM »
Long Island's Eisenhower Park's White and Blue courses both have double greens on their par-threes. Both were designed by Robert Trent Jones Sr. in 1950/1951. The Red course doesn't. It was designed by Devereaux Emmet in 1914 and was one of the Salisbury Club's five courses. It was the site of the 1926 PGA Championship.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2022, 11:48:10 AM »
In this case I mean having 2 greens on each hole, as the PGA Tour Zozo course does this week and many Japanese golf courses do as well. I always understood that one green had winter grass and one had summer grass. But this week, they're playing both greens on one par 3, and a commentator said that it was because of the "heavy play" that they had two greens they could alternate between on each hole. And they certainly don't look like different kinds of grasses.

Any information?


According to my friend Masa, the two-green system was actually suggested to the Japanese by an American military officer stationed there after W.W. II.  He was from Georgia, and he mentioned that where he grew up, some clubs had a summer green and a winter green.  The better clubs in Tokyo adopted this strategy [the sub greens were not designed by Hugh Alison], and then when golf in Japan boomed in the 1960's, everyone copied the best clubs, which had two greens.


Usually, back then, there was a bentgrass green and a korai (Japanese zoysia) green, but some clubs in Hokkaido just built two bentgrass greens side by side.  Eventually, as turf maintenance standards became higher, many of these clubs converted their sub green to bentgrass as well.  But older members did not want the "traditional" sub green to go away, so most clubs kept them, unless they had an American architect and agronomist talk them out of it.

Micah Woods

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2022, 06:23:27 AM »
I've written enough posts about the 2 green system that it's a tagged topic on my website:

https://www.asianturfgrass.com/tag/2-green-system/

I think Tom is correct. The 2 green system wasn't a thing, then it was, and it got copied for a while (60s, 70s, less so in the 80s), and then in the 1990s most of the korai greens got changed to bentgrass. For the past 30 years the 2 green system at most of the courses that use it means there are two bentgrass greens.
But there are courses where the main green is a korai green and there's a little bentgrass sub-green. There's at least one course with two korai greens (Moji). There's Koshigaya with one korai green and one Champion bermudagrass green.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2022, 11:31:45 PM »
I've written enough posts about the 2 green system that it's a tagged topic on my website:

https://www.asianturfgrass.com/tag/2-green-system/

I think Tom is correct. The 2 green system wasn't a thing, then it was, and it got copied for a while (60s, 70s, less so in the 80s), and then in the 1990s most of the korai greens got changed to bentgrass. For the past 30 years the 2 green system at most of the courses that use it means there are two bentgrass greens.
But there are courses where the main green is a korai green and there's a little bentgrass sub-green. There's at least one course with two korai greens (Moji). There's Koshigaya with one korai green and one Champion bermudagrass green.


Thanks.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2022, 11:37:36 PM »
Pine Valley #8 and #9.
Also quite unique to have consecutive holes with multiple greens.


James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2022, 06:55:08 PM »
Cabot Cliffs has different greens on the par 3 fourth hole.  One green is about 20 yard longer than the other but it plays downhill whereas the shorter green is a bit uphill.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2022, 12:10:52 AM »
   Teeth of the Dog has two greens on 5 and 8.  I assume it’s to provide an option in the event that the ocean side greens get damaged by sea water after a storm.

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Japanese Double-Greens
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2022, 01:35:14 AM »
How does having two greens affect the architecture of a course?


I assume the greens tend to be smaller than average?


Does the presence of two greens on a hole lead to other features? Perhaps a lack of straight approach shots where the ball can be run up to the green, as there is a “left green” and a “right green” but no “center green”?