OWGR and LIV golfers

[Niall C]

Ian


You're sidestepping the point; why are LIV golfers the only ones "double-dipping" when seeking to playing on another tour or gain points to gain entry to the majors ?


Niall 

[Pat Burke]

    Why are they so concerned about ranking points and majors? They didn’t leave for prestige; they left for the money; they’re making more money. Most decisions require a balancing of pros and cons. For some, money trumped prestige. For others, prestige trumped money. This is a have your cake and eat it too situation.

I don’t know this, but especially for the guys who have already EARNED their exemptions into major(s), it would be hard to believe the top 4 events in professional golf would change their policies to exclude them.


The guys NOT exempt would already know they have to qualify anyway.

[Pat Burke]

Guess I was “double dipping” when as a pga tour member I earned an exemption for the ‘95 Open with my play in Australia as a member of that tour.


By the way, when I asked for a release to defend the event I won the year before in Australia , the pga tour would not give me a release due to conflict with the LA Open, which I didnt get in the previous year, and didn’t even respond to requests for sponsor exemption consideration when I reached out (multiple times in different ways [letter/fax/call])


Players often played their home tours and racked up owgr points trying to get high enough for exemptions.


I have voiced my bias previously, but to explain, there is a LOT that the pha tour has done to allow a competitor an opening.


And again, it’s too bad what is going on, but I can see a lot of it from many angles.

[Rob Marshall]

    Why are they so concerned about ranking points and majors? They didn’t leave for prestige; they left for the money; they’re making more money. Most decisions require a balancing of pros and cons. For some, money trumped prestige. For others, prestige trumped money. This is a have your cake and eat it too situation.

That is 100% what Harold Varner articulated in his own humble way.
He knew the issues when he signed the deal and has nothing but positive things to say.


I dont think anyone begrudges any of the "LIVers" who sought the fast payday.
It's just so ridiculous that many of them want to double-dip.


It's like they all worked their way up in a company to the top then a rich competitor offered them a guarantee and more $$ to come work for them then they are now all somewhat butt-hurt that they are not invited to their old company's 1) annual meeting 2) holiday parties 3) summer retreat and 4) top-performer reward trip.


Worse...their new CEO is an aggressive and sharp-elbowed ex-player with a chip on his shoulder instead of a smooth, consensus-building executive that seeks real partnerships.


Someone should just lay it on the line: If 54 hole events were the norm "back in the day", then Greg Norman would have won 7 majors.


Ooops...that 4th round is indeed meaningful.

The most prolific choker in the history of the game and I was a big fan. The 6 shot blown lead at the masters was hard to watch.

[Rob Marshall]

Guess I was “double dipping” when as a pga tour member I earned an exemption for the ‘95 Open with my play in Australia as a member of that tour.


By the way, when I asked for a release to defend the event I won the year before in Australia , the pga tour would not give me a release due to conflict with the LA Open, which I didnt get in the previous year, and didn’t even respond to requests for sponsor exemption consideration when I reached out (multiple times in different ways [letter/fax/call])

Have rules changed Pat or are they still the same? Asking because I don’t know. Not being a wise guy.

Players often played their home tours and racked up owgr points trying to get high enough for exemptions.


I have voiced my bias previously, but to explain, there is a LOT that the pha tour has done to allow a competitor an opening.


And again, it’s too bad what is going on, but I can see a lot of it from many angles.

[Pat Burke]

Guess I was “double dipping” when as a pga tour member I earned an exemption for the ‘95 Open with my play in Australia as a member of that tour.


By the way, when I asked for a release to defend the event I won the year before in Australia , the pga tour would not give me a release due to conflict with the LA Open, which I didnt get in the previous year, and didn’t even respond to requests for sponsor exemption consideration when I reached out (multiple times in different ways [letter/fax/call])

Have rules changed Pat or are they still the same? Asking because I don’t know. Not being a wise guy.

Players often played their home tours and racked up owgr points trying to get high enough for exemptions.


I have voiced my bias previously, but to explain, there is a LOT that the pha tour has done to allow a competitor an opening.


And again, it’s too bad what is going on, but I can see a lot of it from many angles.

Rob. I really don’t know the current rules.
As a tour member, you need a release for all but your “home” tour events.


Historically you could get three releases fairly easy IF you committed to playing the event you played “against” in the next (x) years.


 But, it has been awhile since I had to deal with
It.

[Bruce Katona]

Unlike Pat Burke, I am a "never was" versus a "has been".


I'm a very good landscape architect & land/urban planner; neither a has been or never was.
Am I a top 1,000 in the world in either profession - which is the skill level some like Pat Burke has to play for real money on the professional golf tour - probably not.


Would I enjoy having access to that skill set for landscape architecture/planning or golf to see how the top 0.1% do things - yep - in a New York Minute.


it's way easier in life to be successful and financially very well off in the business world than in professional sports of any time - many more opportunities to succeed in the business world.

[Craig Sweet]

From today's Guardian:


"Analysis of this weekend’s format – entirely based on teams – can trigger a sore head. LIV is not making golf simple again. Friday sees teams seeded from five to 12 – the top four have received a bye – compete in both individual and foursome matches. The higher ranked teams selected their opposition. With teams one to four joining Friday’s winners on Saturday, four groups will progress to the “Team Championship”. Day three is of stroke play, with the lowest aggregate score marking the overall winners. For their troubles, a share of $16m before LIV enters cold storage for the remainder  2022."
[/size][/color]
[/size]And they want ranking points?  Its a carnival not a golf tour.[/color]

[Erik J. Barzeski]

From today's Guardian:

"Analysis of this weekend’s format – entirely based on teams – can trigger a sore head. LIV is not making golf simple again. Friday sees teams seeded from five to 12 – the top four have received a bye – compete in both individual and foursome matches. The higher ranked teams selected their opposition. With teams one to four joining Friday’s winners on Saturday, four groups will progress to the “Team Championship”. Day three is of stroke play, with the lowest aggregate score marking the overall winners. For their troubles, a share of $16m before LIV enters cold storage for the remainder  2022."

And they want ranking points?  Its a carnival not a golf tour.

Bigger text.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Something new?

What is LIV Golf’s future? They shared plans for it Saturday

LIV Golf executives shared their plans for 2023 and beyond in a meeting with media Saturday. Here's what the business plan entails.


Read more:

https://golf.com/news/liv-golfs-future-business-plan

[Pat Burke]

Unlike Pat Burke, I am a "never was" versus a "has been".


I'm a very good landscape architect & land/urban planner; neither a has been or never was.
Am I a top 1,000 in the world in either profession - which is the skill level some like Pat Burke has to play for real money on the professional golf tour - probably not.


Would I enjoy having access to that skill set for landscape architecture/planning or golf to see how the top 0.1% do things - yep - in a New York Minute.


it's way easier in life to be successful and financially very well off in the business world than in professional sports of any time - many more opportunities to succeed in the business world.

I was probably closer to a never was than a has been in fairness

[David_Tepper]

Steve S. -

Thanks for the link to the blog regarding "LIV Golf's future."

I think the notion that there is a market for regular/recurring golf competition based on teams to be rather far-fetched. Yes, the Ryder, Walker, Curtis and Presidents Cups do attract interest and viewers, but those events occur not more than once a year and the teams competing are representing countries and/or regions of the world.

In a sport that is been about golfers competing against each other as individual for almost 150 years, will anyone care who wins when Team Mickelson plays Team Johnson? I will not.

DT 

[A.G._Crockett]

Steve S. -

Thanks for the link to the blog regarding "LIV Golf's future."

I think the notion that there is a market for regular/recurring golf competition based on teams to be rather far-fetched. Yes, the Ryder, Walker, Curtis and Presidents Cups do attract interest and viewers, but those events occur not more than once a year and the teams competing are representing countries and/or regions of the world.

In a sport that is been about golfers competing against each other as individual for almost 150 years, will anyone care who wins when Team Mickelson plays Team Johnson? I will not.

DT

Agreed.  How, for instance, has team tennis fared over the years? 

[Carl Johnson]

A perspective on LIV, if you can open the link I've tried to give you.  https://wapo.st/3fi3MFE

[Jim O’Kane]

I enjoyed reading the Shotgun discussion on the previous page. I don't want it re-hashed or brought up again, but I had always thought that as well, like A.G.


Then while reading, I thought if I was involved in something like that, and say we were playing at AGNC, how would I feel about starting on 12 as opposed to 2. Those starts aren't even close to the same. Some guys will have it harder right out of the gate in a shotgun while others will have a little more breathing room.


Just wanted to pipe in because I like that line of thinking, not that I want anyone to jump back on that train and all the back and forth...so please don't for all the other guys who already did.

[Niall C]

Steve S. -

Thanks for the link to the blog regarding "LIV Golf's future."

I think the notion that there is a market for regular/recurring golf competition based on teams to be rather far-fetched. Yes, the Ryder, Walker, Curtis and Presidents Cups do attract interest and viewers, but those events occur not more than once a year and the teams competing are representing countries and/or regions of the world.

In a sport that is been about golfers competing against each other as individual for almost 150 years, will anyone care who wins when Team Mickelson plays Team Johnson? I will not.

DT

David


We are talking about professional golf as entertainment and as a business. It seems to me counter-intuitive to say on one hand how great the Ryder Cup is commercially and how popular it is with fans while on the other hand dismissing the team concept as something that wouldn't work in golf. Look at other sports where people support teams for a whole host of reasons including geography, team name, colour of the strips or simply because their sporting idol played for a particular team when they grew up, so why wouldn't they buy into a particular Team on the LIV ?


As an aside let me also add that I couldn't name any of the regular events on the PGA Tour, DP World Tour or indeed the LIV Tour in the last year, let alone tell you who won them. Outside of the majors, I'm not really bothered.


Niall


 

[Jim_Coleman]

   The sports where teams are popular are TEAM SPORTS.  Team tennis is an afterthought.  The Ryder and Presidents Cups are international team competitions, like the Olympics.  There is no professional team track, team gymnastics, team swimming, etc.

[David_Tepper]

Niall -

The reason the existing team golf competitions generate interest is because of their history and their scarcity. They only happen once a year or once every other year. The teams are representing countries ans/or regions of the world.

It is worth noting that even the Presidents Cup has trouble gaining traction given its short history and the notion that, to some extent, it is perceived as a contrived event.

Given the long history of golf as an individual competition, I think the road to create a golf league with teams that would attract fan & viewer interest will prove to be endless.


World Team Tennis is a good example of the difficulties of transferring an individual sport into a team/league competition.


DT

[Niall C]

Jim


Both tennis and golf have had Team events going back to the days before professionalism took off. You had university teams, college teams, club teams and also teams representing countries. You still do. Maybe the reason why you don't get it in the professional game beyond biannual events such as the Ryder Cup has been to do with the way that the professional game was structured. That has now changed with the advent of LIV.


Niall

[Jeff Schley]

   The sports where teams are popular are TEAM SPORTS.  Team tennis is an afterthought.  The Ryder and Presidents Cups are international team competitions, like the Olympics.  There is no professional team track, team gymnastics, team swimming, etc.

I'll add one sport to the Olympics list which is inherently individual, but we do care about the team results. That is gymnastics. Although we are talking patriotism and Kerry Strug vault on a twisted ankle, knowing it will be 4 more years until we see it again.

[Niall C]

David


See my response to Jim. I think LIV will be a game changer now that their players are on a contract/retainer. Hard to organise recurring team events when players don't have contracts.


Niall

[David_Tepper]

Niall -

Yes, there are existing team/league competitions in (amateur) golf. They occur where there are already existing affiliations: students at a college, members at a golf club, residents of a county, etc. For the most part, the only people who care about the results of those competitions are the participants themselves or people affiliated in some way to the participating group.

Starting a professional league from scratch where there are no prior affiliations among the pool of players or the fans is a dubious task. About the only way I can think of that might work is to have teams representing the various brands of golf clubs. A competition of Team Titleist vs. Team Taylormade or Team Ping vs. Team Mizuno might attract some interest. That seems to be how the Formula One competition works. But a league of Team Mickleson vs. Team Johnson will be a snoozer. 


DT


   

[Niall C]

Niall -

Yes, there are existing team/league competitions in (amateur) golf. They occur where there are already existing affiliations: students at a college, members at a golf club, residents of a county, etc. For the most part, the only people who care about the results of those competitions are the participants themselves or people affiliated in some way to the participating group. Agreed. It's about the connection and creating that connection. What happens in US team sports when someone buys a franchise, renames it and moves it to another town ? I suspect that initially it takes a bit of a hit in terms of support as its previous fanbase drifts away but in due course or even early course a new fanbase takes its place.

Starting a professional league from scratch where there are no prior affiliations among the pool of players or the fans is a dubious task. No but the fans already know the players and have their preferences.


About the only way I can think of that might work is to have teams representing the various brands of golf clubs. A competition of Team Titleist vs. Team Taylormade or Team Ping vs. Team Mizuno might attract some interest. That seems to be how the Formula One competition works. But a league of Team Mickleson vs. Team Johnson will be a snoozer. I doubt there's enough golf brands to make that a possibility. Besides I'm sure they will be looking widen the scope of sponsors.


DT


   

[Kalen Braley]

Well at least some things haven't changed, like FIGJAM's delusions. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/phil-mickelson-makes-bold-prediction-for-liv-golf-in-2023-in-big-warning-to-pga-tour/ar-AA13y6ZE?cvid=343c7635d7234da0b87358d87e953022


P.S.  Totally agreed on the completely artificial construct of trying to make team sports out of individual ones.  Its fine for flag waving for Olympics and Ryder Cup...but other than that, no one cares.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Formula 1 has had team racing for years.
Do you know what team wins every week or do you only know what individual crosses the finishing line first?


The ONLY team victory I have EVER been aware of in motor sports is the 1967 LeMans race only becuase I loved the movie "Ford vs Ferrari"...;-)


Team golf is a sport concept that seeks a market.
It may have worked, but is doomed to failure - not becuase of the concept necessarily - but because of the people and entities behind it.


Greg Norman carries his personal vendetta against the PGA tour on his sleeve just like Trump did with the USFL.
He opens his mouth and bile and resentment oozes forth.


The Saudis are, in one moment, seeking to "grow the game of golf" globally, while in the next moment raising oil prices (by cutting supply) and establishing closer alliances with nations that are hostile to the US and Europe. (Iran and Russia)


Not really solid fundamentals to have a sustainable disruptive business model.


The LIV Tour is basically "Trumpism for Golf".


I will use a quote from a Canadian sociologist when discribing the separatist movement in Quebec in the 1970's and I will substitute the "FLQ" with the "LIV Tour":


"The (LIV Tour) is a like a mail-order bra. While it is designed to lift and separate, it only draws attention to the cleavage."