Lido photos

[Jerry Rossi]

I ran into a fellow GCA'er at my club and shared a couple of these Lido pictures with him.  He encouraged me to post them here, so here you go.  These were taken in mid-May.


Since that day I did get a chance to play the 9 holes they open for preview play and feel that this is going to be one of my favorite courses anywhere!  The features are obviously bold and once it's firm and fast like the rest of Sand Valley's courses I think it will be off the charts fun to play.  Endless possibilities for pin positions on these massive greens (they have to average over 10,000 sq ft) and some really cool bunkering.


2 Plateau (foreground) 11 Lagoon (background)







4 - Channel





3 - Eden, 2 and 11





16 - Redan





14 - Short





12 - Punchbowl





12/4





4 -Channel





3 - Eden





3/4





2/11/4

[J_ Crisham]

Jerry,    Thanks for posting these. I forgot to ask you how much elevation change the property has? Also do you have any footage on Pine Hills? Can you post that?        Thanks- JC

[Tim Martin]

Jerry-Those are superb pictures. I am looking forward to making a trip out there when The Lido GC opens.

[Jerry Rossi]

Jerry,    Thanks for posting these. I forgot to ask you how much elevation change the property has? Also do you have any footage on Pine Hills? Can you post that?        Thanks- JC

JC - not sure on the elevation change but I’m sure others on here would know that. 
I have a lot of Pine Hills CC pictures BUT pics don’t seem to be the thing here on GCA and posting those Lido pics probably took me 40 mins - so I’ll text you some of Pine Hills 👊🏼

[Jerry Rossi]

Jerry-Those are superb pictures. I am looking forward to making a trip out there when The Lido GC opens.

Thanks for the kind words Tim - Lido is just awesome - easy “subject” to shoot.

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry,    Thanks for posting these. I forgot to ask you how much elevation change the property has?

There was about ten feet of elevation change on the property before we started, not that it mattered to the finished product, we were following a plan of what was originally a flat site.


The biggest fill on the golf course is the hill on the Alps hole (#10) which is approx. 20 feet.


The most cut [besides the bottom of the lagoon] is about 8 feet at the bottom of the 18th fairway.

[Thomas Dai]

Splendid photos. Fascinating project. Thanks for posting.
Atb

[Jerry Rossi]

Splendid photos. Fascinating project. Thanks for posting.
Atb

Thanks Thomas

[Mark_Fine]

I wonder if this project (which looks awesome) will change people’s opinion (including the architect’s  ) about “minimalism” in golf course design    Shadow Creek, Whistling Straits, Nanea, …, I could go on and on, all come to mind.  All are the antithesis of a place like Sand Hills - they were built and not found     Many on this site don’t like manufactured golf courses no matter how good they turn out. 


The variety of the playing fields - it is what makes golf the greatest game 

[Peter Flory]

A thing that really was surprising about CBM's design is how naturalistic his rumples were.  Obviously, there were certain features that weren't supposed to look found (like the circus ring around the 10th green or the Channel hole fairway), but the magic of it was how it looks like he put man made features on found land.  The first fairway at the Lido just looked like a found piece of linksland with a lot of randomness within.  It's hard to describe, but there are things within that randomness that are believable because they are so specifically weird.  i.e. not things that help or hurt a golfer's path to the hole, but just features that look like they could have been at the Old Course.  He went through great pains to make it look convincing and the ultimate badge was when Vardon and Ray were in awe of it. 
 

[Mark_Fine]

Peter,
No argument here about the original Lido.  I am sure they did a great job disguising the built features.  My point is that 95% or more of golfers also wouldn’t know that there wasn’t a grain of sand on the site at Whistling Straits or that there was maybe only a cactus or two and a few discarded tires on what was a dead flat desolate site of Shadow Creek.  How many would know they are even in the desert after driving through the gate and passing a 60 foot deep gorge full of mature trees reminiscent of Pine Valley’s #5. Yet engineered courses like these and many other built designs get blasted on this site for being manufactured not found no matter how they turn out.

Quote from Tillinghast: “If a hole has nothing about it that might make it respectable, it has to have quality knocked into it until it can hold its head up in polite society."

In some cases (or whole courses), most of the holes need knocking into shape

[Peter Pallotta]

Peter F
that seems to me the absolute key, ie features (and micro topographies) that neither help nor hurt a golfer's path to the hole, and so help foster a pleasing sense of naturalistic randomness, as if the course (like St Andrews Old) has been there for 150+ years -- the architecture & design evolving over time and conforming itself to the features, instead of the other way around. I've come across that quality exactly never in real life golf courses I've played, and only rarely in photographs of golf courses I've seen here on this site. It seems remarkable to me that Tom's team has developed the skill to recreate that quality/essence so very well, on the ground -- even with the wonderful level of detail your computer work provided.

[Mark_Fine]

PPallotta,
We must be looking at different photos     What “micro togographies” are you looking at in those photos??


Be clear, I think the photos look awesome and I love the geometric golf courses of CBM and Raynor and Banks,…, but their designs with all due respect, were more built then found.  That is my only point.  They were not minimalists 

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark, you misunderstood. I know they are built, and even 'designed' for that
matter -- which is why the skill involved in CBM creating those 'naturalistic rumples' (and Tom and his team recreating them) is so impressive. As I realized many years ago, naturalism and minimalism are not necessarily the same.

[Kalen Braley]

Peter,

I agree.  I had thought Minimalism vs Naturalism had left the port a long time ago.

Some of the most dreadfully boring and uninteresting courses I've played are very minimalistic, built on dead flat terrain with zero asks of the golfer.  Flat fairways, flat greens, flat bunkers, flat everything with next to no dirt moved I'm sure.

As opposed to engaging and fun naturalistic courses that you want to play again and again, even if a significant amount of soil was moved.  I would certainly put Chambers Bay into the latter category.

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder if this project (which looks awesome) will change people’s opinion (including the architect’s  ) about “minimalism” in golf course design     

By 2024 you will be able to compare our reconstruction at Lido to my own 6100-yard, mostly-minimalist golf course across the street.  It could be an interesting case study for you to philosophize about.  But while you are doing that, I will probably forgo the discussion and just keep building courses how I think is best.


P.S.  Of Shadow Creek, Whistling Straits, and Nanea that you mentioned, there is only one of them with which I would have been proud to be associated.  Ultimately, that's the standard for whatever type of project I take on.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I wonder if this project (which looks awesome) will change people’s opinion (including the architect’s  ) about “minimalism” in golf course design     

P.S.  Of Shadow Creek, Whistling Straits, and Nanea that you mentioned, there is only one of them with which I would have been proud to be associated.  Ultimately, that's the standard for whatever type of project I take on.

Nanea?

[Mark_Fine]

Like most everything we discuss here, I guess “minimalism” or being a “minimalist” is a relative term    If for example, moving a half a million cubic yards of soil is the “minimal” amount necessary to make things look natural and result in meaningful and interesting asks of the golfer, then I guess that is minimalism. 

Tom,
Whistling Straits looked very manufactured to me when it first opened and I always said if you can’t get to Scotland or Ireland to see something more authentic, it is worth playing.  Over time it has been tweaked and the aging has helped with many of the conical features that originally looked too contrived for my tastes.  Shadow Creek is an engineering and landscaping marvel.  Does it belong in the desert - no. But when money isn’t an issue, it shows what can be done on even the most bland and uninspiring site.  Nanea is simply an amazing feat of golf course design.  I once called it Sand Hills “built” in a lava field.  It is also a experience like Shadow Creek that if possible to play it should not be missed.  I can’t think of but a handful of architects that wouldn’t be thrilled to say they designed any of the three.  I guess you are one in the handful.  Most of us aren’t quite as lucky 


Sorry to go off on a tangent.  I really do think the photos look great.  Thumbs up 👍