[Ed Brzezowski]

Had the chance to head down a couple of weeks ago to rate two of their new holes. Ended up playing the Sherman nine and a mix of Grant and Meade. Personally I was blown away at the changes from what was there. Elevation changes, generous bunkering and large rolling greens.


Any thoughts from you Philly folks?


Thanks


ed

[mike_malone]

 Was there a couple of years ago and decided to defer opinion until all of the holes are done. I need to overcome my disdain for artificially built up elevation in South Jersey.

[Mike Worth]

Was there a couple of years ago and decided to defer opinion until all of the holes are done. I need to overcome my disdain for artificially built up elevation in South Jersey.

Thank you for posting this. You had the courage to say what I was thinking. And then I was afraid to be first to post it.


I played the first nine renovated holes in a member guest two years ago. My feeling was that it was TOO artificial. It was too contrived.


A couple of the greens are over the top. But my main issue has to do with the large hill constructed in the middle to create elevated tees and greens. That feature, and others, are so painfully artificial that it detracts. 


The feeling I had when I left the club is that I could not play this course every day


That said, the Union League has done a great job. They should be credited with taking a Club that was flat on its ass, and in need of renovation, marketing it well to their members to the point that it had a waiting list and an initiation fee (Unheard of in South Jersey at the time) BEFORE the pandemic began.

[mike_malone]

Was there a couple of years ago and decided to defer opinion until all of the holes are done. I need to overcome my disdain for artificially built up elevation in South Jersey.

Thank you for posting this. You had the courage to say what I was thinking. And then I was afraid to be first to post it.


I played the first nine renovated holes in a member guest two years ago. My feeling was that it was TOO artificial. It was too contrived.


A couple of the greens are over the top. But my main issue has to do with the large hill constructed in the middle to create elevated tees and greens. That feature, and others, are so painfully artificial that it detracts. 


The feeling I had when I left the club is that I could not play this course every day


That said, the Union League has done a great job. They should be credited with taking a Club that was flat on its ass, and in need of renovation, marketing it well to their members to the point that it had a waiting list and an initiation fee (Unheard of in South Jersey at the time) BEFORE the pandemic began.

A bunch of wimps on this site.

[Mike Sweeney]

A bunch of wimps on this site.

Not true in the "old days"!!


I pulled a couple of comments yesterday, because of a wimp. I do sincerely apologize - even to the Flynn psychos

[mike_malone]

A bunch of wimps on this site.

Not true in the "old days"!!


I pulled a couple of comments yesterday, because of a wimp. I do sincerely apologize - even to the Flynn psychos

I’m just a mild mannered Flynn aficionado.

[Joe Bausch]

I saw ULNational in the summer of 2020 during the pandemic.  I played the Grant and Sherman 9's.  Here is how my eyes and camera saw the place:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/ULNGC/index.html


If you wish to see how the course was as the Sand Barrens, go here:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/SandBarrens/index.html

[Mike_Trenham]

Funny Joe Bausch and I played Berwick today (Franklin Meehan 1920) on about the 8th hole I joked that the place reminded me of Union League National.  Hardly any dirt was moved to create that place.  Golf has really changed.


One question for those that have played ULN, how “playable” are the bunkers?  When it was Sand Barrens the bunkers were pretty much unplayable from day one.

[MCirba]

Haven't seen (other than a few pics) or played it yet.


My bias is also against overly manufactured courses but Archie Struthers built a very good one from the ground up at Twisted Dune and he really likes ULN so I'm trying to stay open minded.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Funny Joe Bausch and I played Berwick today (Franklin Meehan 1920) on about the 8th hole I joked that the place reminded me of Union League National.  Hardly any dirt was moved to create that place.  Golf has really changed.


One question for those that have played ULN, how “playable” are the bunkers?  When it was Sand Barrens the bunkers were pretty much unplayable from day one.

Having been in a few the Sherman ones were good, the newer ones needed a little work. But chatting with the guys there that was on the list, a very short list.






The elevation changes are different, I think when all grown in its going to look wonderful.  Had me thinking of Mike Strantz.


And what's wrong with Flynn lovers?

[archie_struthers]

 


 think it's going to be hard for some of the anti-earth moving crew to embrace this but would ask them to play the holes and look at the qualities of the tie ins to be fair. It's a wonderland of stuff and very little has been left to chance by Straka-Fry and the League to bring a great course to the area.


It's so much harder to do this than to find a great piece of land and fit the golf course to the site. Just an opinion but in this case every detail has to be created by man's hand , no easy task for any architect. In our case at Twisted Dune it was so much easier and faster even if we did move more  because we dug down and took it away. So much easier to make it look natural. The only elevations above the starting grade at Twisted are the dunes on Ocean Heights Avenue that block the road noise and for safety concerns on the road.




 That's why I have so much admiration for the job Eric Berstol did at Bayonne. It's very similar to this but Dana has a bigger scale to work with.  With that comes more to design, so it's really a testament to his skill if he pulls this off. Only time will tell but irrespective there are lots and lots of fun shots out there!   


Anyone who can should see it, lots of stuff to admire.

[Mike Worth]

 think it's going to be hard for some of the anti-earth moving crew to embrace this but would ask them to play the holes and look at the qualities of the tie ins to be fair. It's a wonderland of stuff and very little has been left to chance by Dana in his effort to bring a
great course to Cape May County , NJ. 


It's so much harder to do this than to find a great piece of land and fit the golf course to the site. Sometimes you can see the hole right in front of you and then work in the rest. Just an opinion but in this case every detail has to be created by man's hand , no easy task for any architect. In our case at Twisted Dune it was so much easier and faster even if we did move more  because dug down and took it away. So much easier to make it look natural.   That's why I have so much admiration for the job Eric Berstol did at Bayonne. It's very similar to this but Dana has a bigger scale to work with.  With that comes more to design, so it's really a testament to his skill if he pulls this off. Only time will tell but irrespective there are lots and lots of fun shots out there!   


Anyone who can should see it, lots of stuff to admire.

I’m glad you brought up Twisted Dune. I played there last week.  Thoroughly enjoyed it.


The earth moving you did there looks and feels much more natural than what was done at Union League/Sand Barrens.


Irrespective of your observation about digging down at TD, The Union League architect didn’t need to go to that great of an extravagance to achieve variety in terrain and elevation, challenging greens, fairway landing areas, etc.  I do agree that, based on my memory of playing there one time, the green complexes were fairly interesting with good tie-ins

[Ed Brzezowski]

 think it's going to be hard for some of the anti-earth moving crew to embrace this but would ask them to play the holes and look at the qualities of the tie ins to be fair. It's a wonderland of stuff and very little has been left to chance by Straka-Fry and the League to bring a great course to the area.


It's so much harder to do this than to find a great piece of land and fit the golf course to the site. Just an opinion but in this case every detail has to be created by man's hand , no easy task for any architect. In our case at Twisted Dune it was so much easier and faster even if we did move more  because we dug down and took it away. So much easier to make it look natural. The only elevations above the starting grade at Twisted are the dunes on Ocean Heights Avenue that block the road noise and for safety concerns on the road.




 That's why I have so much admiration for the job Eric Berstol did at Bayonne. It's very similar to this but Dana has a bigger scale to work with.  With that comes more to design, so it's really a testament to his skill if he pulls this off. Only time will tell but irrespective there are lots and lots of fun shots out there!   


Anyone who can should see it, lots of stuff to admire.




That's a great comparison, it does have that Bayonne feel. Great point.

[Steve Lapper]

On Monday, I just played the Sherman/Grant nines with a fellow GCA'er (we drove the then-closed Meade nine)  and came away highly impressed. Sharing the old Sand Barrens footprint, it's vastly different and significantly improved.The Fry/Straka work was extensive and throughly enjoyable.


Maximal in its scale and and aesthetic, the super-majority of the holes are truly interesting from the tee shot through to the final putt. It is also wildly photogenic.

Abundantly wide fairways along with scraped sandy waste areas combine with strategically-placed (diversely-sized) bunkering to share the landscape with occasional adjacent ponds and scrub.  Collectively, and with good routing, they've created considerable eye-candy. Think Galloway National meets Old Sandwich or Boston GC, sprinkled with a touch of Calusa Pines and Shadow Creek.

 Sure, most of the elevation is, or was, at one time-artificial, yet the look and more importantly, the course's playability is undeniably outstanding. There are definitely a few dud holes, and some that seem semi-forced into spots, yet overall the golf is rock-solid and certainly fun.

[/size] Conditioning is still [/size]slightly a work in-progess in places as the they've just sequenced in the final holes and are already experiencing overwhelming levels of play per month. That said, the holes open the longest are playing fast & firm and with greens at near-perfect speeds. Their head super, Scott Bordner, came from Chicago Golf and certainly has a good handle on this large-scale facility.

 The real winner throughout are its greens and surrounds. Most are sizable with fantastic movement. Rolls, wings, steep back slopes, bowls, etc…One could have fun all day with challenge putts from various greens areas. Quite a number of the green surrounds are also superb with graded edging that demands deft skill to successfully navigate. Casual bailouts aren't always treated equally.

   All-in-all, we both came away thrilled we'd make the long-drives to see it. It's a course, I truly enjoyed and can't wait to get back to.

[Tom_Doak]

Most of the descriptions of this course sound very much like the original descriptions of the Pine Barrens course, 25 years ago.  And it certainly did not live up to the hype.  I wish someone would say something about the new version that makes it sound more interesting.

[Steve Lapper]

Tom,

  Having played the original Sand Barrens (Pine Barrens GC is much farther north) multiple times, the new Union League National has vastly different bunker-styling with better strategic placement, some differing waste/scrub-area presentation, much-improved routing and far more interesting and elaborate green contours. Almost every green out there bears little or no resemblance to the former Sand Barrens. In fact several even remind me of some of your work at Ballyneal.....some are that good. The green side complexes (short mown areas, drop-offs, etc) are far more interesting than previous and the routing has shifted measurably as well. All-in-all, it bears little-to-no resemblance to the Sand Barrens you seem to find so unworthy.

 My apologies if I don't have the time to write this with more hole-by-hole detail. If that doesn't make it sound more interesting perhaps you ought to go there and see it for yourself? It isn't Top 100 worthy, but it has considerable merit,  some really fun features and does deserve some recognition no matter what others may think of it from afar.

[Mike Worth]

Most of the descriptions of this course sound very much like the original descriptions of the Pine Barrens course, 25 years ago.  And it certainly did not live up to the hype.  I wish someone would say something about the new version that makes it sound more interesting.

I know I’m a relative nobody here, but I will fight anyone who says the Union League course is anything more than a 5 on the Doak scale.

[Joe Bausch]

Photos of ULN from August 2020:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/ULNGC/index.html


Photos of Pine Barrens from October of 2020:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PineBarrens/index.html


As always, enjoy!

[mike_malone]

Most of the descriptions of this course sound very much like the original descriptions of the Pine Barrens course, 25 years ago.  And it certainly did not live up to the hype.  I wish someone would say something about the new version that makes it sound more interesting.

I know I’m a relative nobody here, but I will fight anyone who says the Union League course is anything more than a 5 on the Doak scale.

Mike,


I would love for you to flesh out your view.

[Mike Worth]

Mike Malone — I’ve posted my views in this thread twice.  Once in May 2021 and then in June 2022 in response to Archie. How much more needs to be fleshed?


Since views on the architectural and other merits of a golf course are mostly subjective, I’ll leave with a final thought.


If I went back it would be because I was invited by a friend who is a Union League member (I know a few) not because of the golf.

[Steve Lapper]

Most of the descriptions of this course sound very much like the original descriptions of the Pine Barrens course, 25 years ago.  And it certainly did not live up to the hype.  I wish someone would say something about the new version that makes it sound more interesting.

I know I’m a relative nobody here, but I will fight anyone who says the Union League course is anything more than a 5 on the Doak scale.

Mike,


I would give the Sherman/Grant pairing a Doak 6, no higher, no lower. Please tell the Round card girl to leave the ring.

[Tom_Doak]

All-in-all, it bears little-to-no resemblance to the Sand Barrens you seem to find so unworthy.

Apparently I wasn't the only one to find it unworthy, since they decided to blow it up for a new version.
[/size]
[/size]
[/size]

 My apologies if I don't have the time to write this with more hole-by-hole detail. If that doesn't make it sound more interesting perhaps you ought to go there and see it for yourself? It isn't Top 100 worthy, but it has considerable merit,  some really fun features and does deserve some recognition no matter what others may think of it from afar.[/font]

Well, I was trying to suss out whether it was worth me going.  I worked with Scott Bordner for several years at Chicago Golf Club, so I know it will be in great shape, anyway.  But if it's somewhere between a 5 and a 6, I've probably got more important things to do.

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