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Ally Mcintosh

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Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« on: July 20, 2022, 06:56:46 AM »
I just saw a post by Adam Lawrence (in research for his Colt biography) where he stated he has just found another Colt course and was up to 434.


Now I’ve no idea what level of involvement has to be there to qualify to get in to the 434 but it might be worth considering the following:


Tom Doak has spent his entire adult life practicing as a GCA, the last 30 years (approx) of which under his own firm; and he considers that he has 40 golf courses to his name. Sure, he has a whole bunch of renovations, restorations etc.. that aren’t included in that number. But still…


Ross had - what - 500 courses?
Nicklaus has I imagine a lot more than that as well as multiple other business interests.


Is there a list of GCA’s by quantity of courses? That in turn might tell us how much involvement they actually had in some of their designs.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2022, 08:29:36 AM »
Ally:


As you know, it's really hard to count.  Colt's list, like Ross's, would surely include any courses where he did major renovations, and I don't know about minor renovations.  I'll let Adam weigh in on whether Colt's list also includes courses that his partners were mostly or completely responsible for.


I can't remember the number now, and don't have time to go digging today, but I believe that Alister MacKenzie publicly claimed to have worked on 170 courses, sometime before the end of his career.  Hopefully Neal Crafter sees this and weighs in on how many he has managed to count -- I don't think I got to more than 120 in my limited research.


I do remember Jack Nicklaus announced some course as his 300th while we were building Sebonack, and he kept going for a dozen years after that, although at a reduced rate post-recession.

David_Tepper

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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2022, 08:55:30 AM »
It’s quite clear that the ODG’s would have spent less hours per project than a “boutique” firm like Renaissance does, partly because Tom manages the builds of his courses.


An interesting exercise would be listing certain architects and who built their courses? A second layer would be understanding how much time the architect (or architect rep) spent on site during the build.


I think that the detailing on Braid’s courses is often far simpler (on average but not on all) than say - Colt courses. Is that because he had some amateur builders whilst Colt usually had a more established contractor working under his guidance? Is it because Braid was never there? Is it because his design instructions weren’t as detailed?




Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2022, 09:14:30 AM »

I think that the detailing on Braid’s courses is often far simpler (on average but not on all) than say - Colt courses. Is that because he had some amateur builders whilst Colt usually had a more established contractor working under his guidance? Is it because Braid was never there? Is it because his design instructions weren’t as detailed?


I've got the book someone did years ago on Braid's work, but I would have to look up whether it has any examples of plans drawn by James Braid.  Colt did hole by hole plans for most of his courses.


But, the standard in the U.K. back then was not so high.  One reason MacKenzie's list of works is so hard to pin down is that for the first ten years of his career, most of his clients would only pay him to come in for a day or two and do a consulting report, which they would then implement in part or in whole in-house, as they saw fit.  British clubs in general didn't think of golf course architecture as being that complicated -- understandably, since most of the early courses were built very simply.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 09:17:25 AM by Tom_Doak »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2022, 09:39:47 AM »
I don't know of any list, and whether or not you can trust any self proclaimed list is questionable, LOL, not that I am throwing my fellow gca's under the bus.  It's just that the top 5 to 8 in any era actually end up doing 2/3 or more of the major work.  And, as you know, many gca's do more renovation work than new courses (even in the busier eras) or now are even 100% renovation work.  There are gca's out there who might only be able to claim a few new courses, even after 20 years in the biz.


Tom mentions Jack's list of 300, which triggered a memory of a 1980 ish Golf Magazine article, before Jack really got his business up and running, claiming 40. If you looked closely, he may have had contracts for them, but many were listed as "estimated 1987" or something like that.  I could quote other instances, JN is not alone, just interesting because if anyone didn't need to inflate a list, it would be him, even circa 1980, but somehow, architects have always seemed to feel that longer (lists) is better.  I do know the insecure feeling of going into an interview with "only" X amount of courses when I knew other competitors for the project had many more.


I was prone to that exaggeration myself, claiming an even 60 new courses in my last year in business when my resume was complete. (There is no ring to 58.5 courses, or whatever)  When I went back to look recently, my new 18 hole count was 42, with about 10 9 hole, par 3, etc. courses, and 8 total blowouts with some re-routing.    If I was totally truthful, I might have just claimed 60 major projects instead


I had at least as many small projects, i.e., 1 green a year or something, and perhaps as many consulting gigs that never resulted in any construction designed by me. That explains part of the problem, in that exactly what do you count?  I notice that the American Society of Landscape Architects had annual awards, and at one point (haven't checked lately) even had an award for "unrealized projects."  I suspect many younger architects have a lot of those until they build up their reputations (although starting and never getting to construction is an occupational hazard at any age.)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2022, 06:47:42 AM »
Eddie Ault and Tom Clark did a ton - something in the 400 range.


I suspect many we tend to overestimate.  Ross probably did less than the 425 some books cite.  There are something like 360 remaining. 


Raynor has an interesting list.  For years the Raynor Society estimated Raynor did 150 or so courses.  After Pioppi and others started digging that number went waaaaay down.  He designed something like 75 courses of which 55 were built and 35 are in existence today.  (Raynor not Tony :-)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2022, 04:24:56 PM »
Nobody is close to Bendelow for total projects. 


We know that much of his early work was a design left for the club to construct, but he went on to have much greater involvement with his courses as time went on.


I've said it before, but he is certainly the most unheralded figure in the development of golf in the United States.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sam Morrow

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2022, 10:05:52 PM »
Nobody is close to Bendelow for total projects. 


We know that much of his early work was a design left for the club to construct, but he went on to have much greater involvement with his courses as time went on.


I've said it before, but he is certainly the most unheralded figure in the development of golf in the United States.


He was the first person I thought of also, believe they called him "Golf's Johnny Appleseed."

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2022, 02:02:36 AM »
Might be interesting for some architects to post the resource hours allocated to a typical project from their firm (although given different billing structures, I’m sure we can only expect very general answers).


If you take Bendelow’s starting point as “Eighteen Stakes on a Sunday Afternoon”, does anyone have any inkling of how much prep work or design work he would do outside the one visit? Could each project legitimately be a 20-50 hour affair at the beginning of his career?


Compare that to a design house now where the lead architect might spend 3-6 months almost full time through the design phase with 20-40 visits through construction. Plus a supplementary CAD resource. And that’s neglecting permitting and feasibility phases.


Or compare to a design / shape house who may spend a little less time in the office but will have 3-4 guys on site for 6-9 months construction.


I suspect the ODG’s fell somewhere between the Bendelow early model and the modern day example with Braid nearer Bendelow and someone like Raynor (given his engineering background) with significantly more input.


All (educated) speculation of course… and in the case of modern examples anyway, highly generalised.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2022, 07:39:36 AM »
Ally:


I don't think I have ever posted here (or elsewhere) how much time it typically takes us to design and build a golf course, and I don't know who else is willing to share, but here are the numbers for me:


Routing:  varies tremendously, but I budget ten days on site, and usually bring one of my associates along to bounce ideas off.  In recent years I usually get it done in less than that, but inevitably the client will want me to come back around once or twice more before we get to construction, anyway.


Construction visits:  My time budget now is 30 days on site, usually broken up into 5-6 visits of a few days each.  The more "visits" the more travel time and the less time on the ground, so I am nearly always there for a few days, working to get 2-4 holes signed off as ready for irrigation, and get my ideas together for the next batch of holes they will work on while I'm away.  This number has reduced over time as I've gotten more efficient and more trusting in my associates -- for Pacific Dunes I believe it wa 57 days -- but I didn't spend much more time at St. Patrick's or Tara Iti than any of the other projects we've done lately.


Lead associate:  Our contract calls for the lead associate to be on site +/- 15 days per month while shaping is happening [5-6 months] and occasionally during the rest of construction, so about 100 days all told.  This is part of the design contract.  It's possible that the lead associate will spend half his time in a machine doing some of the shaping, and get paid for that time out of the shaping budget.


Shaping:  We get paid a separate fee for shaping, which varies based on the scope of work.  Typically we will have 2-3 people doing shaping on a project in addition to the lead associate, and they are there 15-20 days per month for several months, boosted along by an occasional guest appearance by one of my other senior associates.


So, you could say I'm there for 30-40 days, or you could say my crew are there for a total of 300.


Some may wonder why I'm "only" on site for 30 days if I only do 1-2 projects per year.  My typical year budgets 2 x 30 days for construction visits, 3 x 10 days for routings, 20-30 days for seeking out new potential projects, and it used to include 30 days for consulting work, which I'm writing down to zero now that we may be doing more than two construction jobs per year.  [This is why I am also stingy with my time for speaking engagements, playing golf, etc.]  Bottom line, I've been on the road 120-180 days per year for the past thirty years, and so have my associates.  You have to love what you do to stay in this business, because otherwise a schedule like that would take a huge toll on your emotional and physical health.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2022, 09:20:54 AM »
Of course, it varies from project to project, and over time.  I recall, back when I had 2-4 staffers, that we all kept time cards.  In 1989 or 1990 I recall a time budget sheet for one 18 hole course added up to 2300 hours from first design through my 30-60 days on site.  After we got proficient in CAD, that dropped to about 500-600 hours in plans.  As I mention when Mike Young complains about full plan sets, the truth is, if clients want them (and muni's usually do) once you set up the layers, views, and sheets, after doing the main plan, i.e., grading and drainage, you can almost hit a button and produce the rest.


I was more lax in counting up my on site time. Only when we were really busy did I have projects where the associate architects made most of the site visits.  On about 10% of my courses, we did negotiate to get a full time person on site.   Otherwise, it was 1-2 days per week mostly from me.


Like Tom, it always seemed to work well to bring the lead associate on as many site visits as I could.  Like Tom, I found 2-4 day visits were more practical than one day visits.  First, someone always seemed to want a construction meeting that took half a day at least.  Or drag me into clubhouse design (or at least the area outside it, which isn't always our responsibility)  Second, if the contractor had 2-4 shapers, it worked best if I reviewed and directed any changes, went a way for a few hours to let them work (conferring with shapers elsewhere) and come back to see it, tweak it, and approve it before leaving.  On a one day visit, you can give instructions, but the shaping is really rarely finished so it takes another trip.  We did use the ability to send photos back and forth in later years, sometimes using Photoshop to further illustrate what we meant to say....


When I was negotiating the second course at Giant's Ridge, I had the records that on the first one, I had 64 hotel nights at their lodge, which helped estimate the days on site (I figured about 1.25-1.5 days per hotel night, given travel schedules)


Tom's summary about how much time you need to leave for other biz aspects, not to mention life rings true.  Young associates always wondered how I had the gall to charge over $100 for their time, when paying them $20 an hour or so to start in that era.  By the time you figure vacation and sick days (15-20 days), benefits at 27-30%, weekly meetings and general office stuff, continuing education, and the fact that so many times with new associates, they had to redo stuff or were incredibly slow, the supposed 2080 hours available for working on real projects were really close to half that.  Their $20 was really $27 after benefits, so break even was at least $54 just for them, and usually overhead cost about the same, and we charged at least $105, more if we actually thought we could squeeze a profit out of the owner, LOL.  Sorry for being a bit OT.


As to Ally's comment on billing structures, we know the most profitable way to design is lump sum fee that accounts for time and profit.  The least profitable way is to sign an hourly contract, although some agencies still required it (as of last year)  But, no matter what the design fee billing structure, I think most gca's did keep time records.  It would be interesting to hear a few more stories and anecdotes about the time it takes to design a golf course.


Like Ally, I sometimes wonder how everyone reveres the old guys and the fact that Ross actually spent two days on site!  In modern times, the standards have gone up from one day of design on site and leaving the super to build it that most of them had to do by necessity (travel difficulties, etc.) to something similar to what Tom and I have noted.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Leahy

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2022, 10:38:27 PM »
It seemed like every other course in Cali was designed by Ted Robinson but on checking his total is under 200 with out of state jobs included. Some good, some not, but all with a waterfall. 8)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2022, 09:09:46 AM »
Tom or Jeff or Others,


Do you ever build into the contract up front an allowance for/ commitment to return visits after the course opens to make adjustments?


Thanks.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2022, 04:11:12 PM »
It's interesting how much has changed since the Jazz-Golden Age:
-Irving Berlin wrote and published almost 1500 songs, 300 of them before he was 30 years old
- John Carradine acted in almost 400 feature films
- Louis L'Amour wrote 100+ novels and 250 more short stories, pretty much all about the same subject
- Louis Armstrong played over 9000 concerts, about 300 one-nighters per year, for 30+ straight years!

The audience's demand for -- and the critical expectations about -- these various expressions of art & craft seemed so much different back then.

PS
And Lou Gehrig played in 2130 consecutive ball games. I know, I know -- but this was before air travel, sports nutritionists, and cortisone injections!


« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 04:33:24 PM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2022, 11:08:33 PM »
Tom or Jeff or Others,


Do you ever build into the contract up front an allowance for/ commitment to return visits after the course opens to make adjustments?



I don’t.  Per my previous post, my most precious resource is a day on my calendar, and there’s no point clogging it up with commitments that aren’t necessary.  If one of our courses needs attention, we are always available, but most of them don’t require much attention the first few years while everyone who was involved in it is still involved.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2022, 08:05:10 AM »
Ira,


This has never been practical for most, if any of us.  I think JN tried that in his early years, and he wasn't even able to pull it off often.  I could be wrong, but have heard that he has some clauses that only he make changes or he will take his name off the course, which sort of commits the owner to future consulting, without any formal contract clause.


You are paid to deliver a golf course.  It is a tough sell to tell the owner that you also need a paid mulligan for the next five years.  If they are happy, but a few problems arise, they will usually call you back.  If there are a lot of problems and they aren't happy, they will probably do it themselves or get another gca in there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golf Course Architects (by quantity)
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2022, 10:09:45 AM »
I always think that - like an engineering project - it’s great practice to provide an Operations and Maintenance manual so that future owners / course managers can understand some of the intent in the detailing and presentation. It can protect the architects vision to a degree.


Depends on whether any client is willing to pay for it.