[Jerry Kluger]

My take away from watching The Open was how well the players were able to avoid the bunkers and without a strong wind how could the course defend against low scores.  When you consider how many shots were played by the field over the course of the event, it did seem that few shots wound up in a bunker. I know it was certainly entertaining and exciting but there was little that could stop low scores other than a balky putter or a jumper out of the long grass. Lately golf broadcasts have shown a double screen with the player on one side and an aerial of the hole on the other with the player's shot imposed on the hole which would have really been good in this instance to help viewers understand more about the hole. Cam Smith's score on Sunday was exceptional but there were many other low scores and only a balky putter stopped Rory from a low score. How low can the scores go before they decide that something needs to be done for TOC to continue to be part of the rota? 

[James Brown]

The average winning score at the Old Course for the Open is about 274.8 [size=78%]from 1970 to today.  Faldo shot 270 in 1990 and Tiger shot 269 in 2000.   So why is 268 this year a problem?  I am certainly fine with 2 shots improvement  in 32 years [/size]


Colin Morikawa shot 265 last year at Royal St. George’s.  The winning score at Troon in 2016 for Stenson was 264, which was also 20 under.  The winning score at Turnberry in 1977 was 268! 


Irons today have higher numbers on them but the same lofts as [size=78%]the clubs that were hit a generation or two ago. [/size][/size][size=78%][/size][size=78%]The 7 iron Tom Watson hit in 1977 had the same loft as 9 iron today.   So they are playing a golf course that is 7300 yards instead of 7000 yards.  And everyone seems to harp on the fact that tees are on “other golf courses,” as if it matters that the 17th tee is across the fence and 10 yards onto the Eden Course.  [/size][size=78%]

[/size][size=78%]They started moving back the tees at the Old Course more than a hundred years ago.  [/size][size=78%]

[/size][size=78%]Roll back the ball.  Or not.  Let them shoot 21 under.  Or maybe the wind blows.[/size][size=78%]

[/size][size=78%]But don’t retire the Old Course.  Never.  Ever.  Golf is better with the Old Course every few years.  Let’s keep that alive.[/size][size=78%]

[Wayne_Kozun]

Great points James.  People tend to forget that the Old Course still plays to a par of 72, unlike the US Open where they usually play to a par of 70.  That makes the scores seem better in relation to par.

[Niall C]

Why are we even talking numbers ? Surely the relevant yardstick is did the best players rise to the top to which I think most would agree that they did, and secondly were they thoroughly tested and again I think the answer is yes.


Niall

[Mark_Fine]

If they called par 66 (which they easily could have), the winning score would have been +4.  Does the total par for 18 holes really matter or is it the kind of golf shots required that make a tournament like this exciting to watch?  It is one thing if every hole requires the same tee shot/approach, but The Old Course is anything but that.  We saw all kinds of shots/shot options  that could be played.  Some of the best players in the world didn’t break even par for the two first days and make the cut and the weather was absolutely perfect or should I say benign. 

[Jerry Kluger]

I agree that par is just a number but look at the scores - of the top 52 players on Sunday there was one score at even par and 2 players over par for the round - the remaining 50 players were under par.  Cam Smith shot his second 64 of the event and said that he hit it just fine on Saturday but just didn't make any putts.  What is more important is whether the bunkers are no longer in play on many of the holes for these guys or is there some other explanation why they were so rarely in them.  I absolutely believe that TOC should remain part of The Open rota and no doubt it will but is it further evidence that the current ball needs to be dialed back at the professional level?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Arbitrarily decide that par is 70, as the USGA usually does for the US Open, and you get a different story.  But it doesn't really change anything.

[Mark Kiely]

Forgive my ignorance, but is the fescue/heather (that all the announcers kept saying the players didn't mind being in) ever deeper/thicker/more penal than it was this past week? I don't recall and I've never been there. It seemed awfully forgiving to me. Not sure if that was a result of an extra dry year or what. If it was more difficult to play from, bunkers might've come into play more because players would have had to hit more controlled shots to try to keep it in the fairways more.

[Mark_Fine]

Mark,
The thickness of the rough is weather dependent.  Correct me if I am wrong, but they have not had the rain that they often do.  I know my one buddy's course down further south is dry as a bone. 

[Wade Whitehead]

I'm convinced that the only way to reign in distance (which causes all kinds of problems, including making bunker placement irrelevant) is to stop letting players [in an event like the Open] use tees.

WW

[Niall C]

I'm convinced that the only way to reign in distance (which causes all kinds of problems, including making bunker placement irrelevant) is to stop letting players [in an event like the Open] use tees.

WW

Wade


I understand your logic however I suspect it would simply lead to an increase in irons off the tee resulting in a field of divots.


Niall

[David Kelly]

Forgive my ignorance, but is the fescue/heather (that all the announcers kept saying the players didn't mind being in) ever deeper/thicker/more penal than it was this past week? I don't recall and I've never been there. It seemed awfully forgiving to me. Not sure if that was a result of an extra dry year or what. If it was more difficult to play from, bunkers might've come into play more because players would have had to hit more controlled shots to try to keep it in the fairways more.

I believe there is more rough at The Old Course now than there has ever been. I know they added roughto the left of 16 about 10 years ago and for some reason down the right side of 17 also. 


There was a good article on The Fried Egg about the history of rough at TOC.

[Jerry Kluger]

Were there any par fours that were being consistently reached in one shot with less than driver?

[Tom_Doak]

Were there any par fours that were being consistently reached in one shot with less than driver?

No.  They've got the tees back far enough that 9, 10, 12 and 18 were not reachable for most in the field when they had any kind of hurting breeze.  But whichever of them played downwind were reachable with driver, and for maybe 10-20% of the field, something less than driver.  [Note that only 18 has trouble over the back where guys had to gear down to make sure of not running through.  On the other three holes, being over the back of the green is an easier shot than being just short.]

[JohnVDB]

Arbitrarily decide that par is 70, as the USGA usually does for the US Open, and you get a different story.  But it doesn't really change anything.

That is such a mind game with the players.  Call it a par 4 and players feel they HAVE to go for it and make mistakes.


I believe it was Payne Stewart who once complained to Tom Meeks about changing par on the 6th at Congressional from a 5 to a 4.  Tom replied that if Payne would promise not to go for it in 2, he’d call it a 5. Payne got the message.

[Carl Rogers]

With a ball roll back, I suggest a Driver roll back.  COR of 0.70, no graphite shaft, 43.5" max length.

[Mike Bodo]

With a ball roll back, I suggest a Driver roll back.  COR of 0.70, no graphite shaft, 43.5" max length.

Instead of an equipment and ball roll back, why not just play the Open Championship with hickories and current golf balls if the objective is to keep these venerable old courses relevant? All you're going to do is piss players, fans and equipment companies off that have a vested interest in pushing the boundaries of technology. I won't watch an equipment/ball compomised championship if it's a one-off event. If there's gong to be any kind of roll-back then it should apply across all men's and women's professional golf leagues, tours and championships - including senior events. No one should be excluded.


The problem with any roll-back discussion is that it will never be fully adopted by all golf cohorts. LIV Golf sure as heck doesn't want it. Nor, too, the PGA Tour. They want guys bombing the ball as far as it can go, as that's what players, fans and equipment/ball manufacturers want to keep the money and advertising machine churning.

[Mark_Fine]

I am not one for longer and longer golf courses as it just adds to the cost of the game and the time it takes to play it.  That said, I also don't like every hole to be driver/wedge.  However, maybe the reality is that we have to accept that many classic/older courses like The Old Course will be played differently than they used to.  I have been criticized on this site before about trying to restore "original design intent" when doing restoration work.  How can we know what the original designers were thinking?  Who is to say that Old Tom Morris never expected over half of his holes to be reached in one shot?  Maybe he did    and maybe we just need to accept that and let the courses play differently than they used to.  As long as the game is exciting and challenging (no pro will argue The Old Course was anything but that and they had great weather), then maybe all is ok 

[Thomas Dai]

No wind and bunkers not in play - now what?

If no equipment rollback then ditch using the full spiritually delightfully relic for The Open and use a composite course starting on TOC 1st, finishing on TOC 16-17-18 with the other holes made up from the New, Eden and Jubilee and some other TOC holes. More player challenge, more spectator space and should be quicker than 6 hr rounds.

There I've said it. Now time to hide behind the sofa!!!!
atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Just let them play it every 5 or 6 years for 4 days as it is. Who cares as long as the course still works for everyone else?


Yes I agree that distance is a problem and that a rollback would be good… but by making “The Pro’s have outgrown the Old Course” such an issue every time, you are bringing in to play the chance that they will alter the course to appease the dissenting voices rather than work hard to achieve a rollback.


Just be quiet and move on. Tell everyone how great The Old Course Open was and that you can’t wait for it to return…

[Mike Bodo]

I am not one for longer and longer golf courses as it just adds to the cost of the game and the time it takes to play it.  That said, I also don't like every hole to be driver/wedge.  However, maybe the reality is that we have to accept that many classic/older courses like The Old Course will be played differently than they used to.  I have been criticized on this site before about trying to restore "original design intent" when doing restoration work.  How can we know what the original designers were thinking?  Who is to say that Old Tom Morris never expected over half of his holes to be reached in one shot?  Maybe he did    and maybe we just need to accept that and let the courses play differently than they used to.  As long as the game is exciting and challenging (no pro will argue The Old Course was anything but that and they had great weather), then maybe all is ok 

Mark, I like your take. I don't want longer and longer courses either for a multitude of reasons. If TOC and other Open Championship venues become drive and chip events in the absence of wind, I'm fine with that. If nothing else, this year's Open Championship exposed players with weak short games and erratic drivers, as there were plenty of players over par who missed the cut. Whereas as guys that could bomb it and keep it out of harms way and consistently get up and down from 100 yds. or less flourished.


I truly enjoyed the Open Championship this year and thought it was a great tournament. In fact, I'd argue this was the best year for major championship golf in quite awhile. I mean, the Master's is the Masters, but I really enjoyed the other three major championship venues this year and the compelling golf they brought. I'm hoping next year brings more of the same, although I'm not really excited about Royal Liverpool, I must admit.


That said, one of the many appealing things of an Open Championship at TOC is the fact that the pros by and large play the same course you and I play, which is unique in all of golf. Sure, a couple of holes have special tees for these guys, but they're essentially playing the same course the person off the street plays, which is super cool. Hopefully, the next edition of the Open Championship at TOC brings with it some inclement weather so we can see just how bearish and difficult the Old Lady can play for these guys.

[Thomas Dai]

Just let them play it every 5 or 6 years for 4 days as it is. Who cares as long as the course still works for everyone else?
Yes I agree that distance is a problem and that a rollback would be good… but by making “The Pro’s have outgrown the Old Course” such an issue every time, you are bringing in to play the chance that they will alter the course to appease the dissenting voices rather than work hard to achieve a rollback.
Just be quiet and move on. Tell everyone how great The Old Course Open was and that you can’t wait for it to return…

Perhaps Prestwick should be re-introduced into The Open rota then? Or Musselburgh?
Atb

[Peter Sayegh]

Just let them play it every 5 or 6 years for 4 days as it is. Who cares as long as the course still works for everyone else?


Yes I agree that distance is a problem and that a rollback would be good… but by making “The Pro’s have outgrown the Old Course” such an issue every time, you are bringing in to play the chance that they will alter the course to appease the dissenting voices rather than work hard to achieve a rollback.


Just be quiet and move on. Tell everyone how great The Old Course Open was and that you can’t wait for it to return…

Just let them play it every 5 or 6 years for 4 days as it is. Who cares as long as the course still works for everyone else?
Yes I agree that distance is a problem and that a rollback would be good… but by making “The Pro’s have outgrown the Old Course” such an issue every time, you are bringing in to play the chance that they will alter the course to appease the dissenting voices rather than work hard to achieve a rollback.
Just be quiet and move on. Tell everyone how great The Old Course Open was and that you can’t wait for it to return…

Perhaps Prestwick should be re-introduced into The Open rota then? Or Musselburgh?
Atb

Yes to both of you!
Why not?

[cary lichtenstein]

Wouldn't it be great if one year, they made every player use the same exact balata ball and woods and irons from Jack and Arnie's era. That would spice up the Open.

[Pete Lavallee]

The problem there is no one makes balata balls anymore. We do have a guy here in SD that makes replica gutta percha balls for hickory play. Those travel about 180 yards at best.

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