Why can't Royal Cinque Ports host The Open again?

[Jeff Schley]

I didn't want to take away from David's post on RCP's article so started another thread to not thread jack.
Just why can't RCP host another Open? Especially after seeing TOC battle the best on a similar length course and par 72. RCP has three par 3's and three par 5's would be a difference. Check out the scorecard.  Those that have been there know it is almost the same property as Royal St. Georges just adjacent to it. RSG certainly is much more wild with its humps and bumps, but RCP is outstanding and finally getting it's due for the rankings. It has hosted The Open in the long ago past, but why not again?  I'd love to hear those who are for, but moreso what are the reasons for the against?  Marvelous links course and would show herself well one July weekend in the future again I believe.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I shouldn't comment because I have yet to play it, but from the photos it doesn't look like there is a lot or room for spectators.

[Ben Malach]

I spent a few hours this winter walking around Cinque Ports. It's a good golf course but it for sure would have some major infrastructure issues. Sandwich is a bigger property and has way more space to put up the infrastructure required for The Open. Also, I personally think that St. Georges is the better of the two golf courses. So it would be hard for the R&A to go next door to a golf course that doesn't have the character or the quality of holes at the existing Open course.


I don't think the R&A is looking for different rota courses in England as that roster is very stout already. I do think however there is some truth to the R&A looking at some Irish links to host the Open.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I don't think the R&A is looking for different rota courses in England as that roster is very stout already. I do think however there is some truth to the R&A looking at some Irish links to host the Open.

Irish as in the Republic, or Northern Ireland?

[Mark Chaplin]

Ben it is my understanding they are looking at fewer venues not more. If there were to be a second south east England venue I’d think Deal would be the second not the first choice.

[Niall C]

In terms of infrastructure and looking at the aerial in a previous post, there appears to be quite a bit of land adjacent that might be utilised subject to agreeing terms with the landowner. There also appears to be plenty of room for spectators and grandstands although the 18th green might be a bit problematic. And most importantly the course is plenty good enough.


Niall

[Mark_Fine]

I sat in a local pub in Deal years ago and listened to the head pros from both RCP and RSG argue over multiple beers which course was better.  I love them both.  I think RCP fell out of the rotation many years back for some reason and just never was able to get back in.  It is not for lack of quality of the golf. 

[Michael Felton]

I sat in a local pub in Deal years ago and listened to the head pros from both RCP and RSG argue over multiple beers which course was better.  I love them both.  I think RCP fell out of the rotation many years back for some reason and just never was able to get back in.  It is not for lack of quality of the golf.

I read something about this. Back in the 20s I think it was they were going to hold it at RCP. Then the week before the sea came over the wall and they moved it to RSG. Then in the late 40s they were going to have it at RCP again and, in quite a shocking turn of events, the week before the sea came over the wall and they had to move it to RSG again. Since then they’ve never tried again.


The infrastructure issues are real. The farmland may present an opportunity for the tented village, but it may be a struggle. And access is pretty terrible. Is it worse than RSG? Maybe. Deal is a small plot. TOC is pretty bad for spectators because it’s almost impossible to cross the course. RCP would be similar. There’s not much room between the out and in holes and there’s not much room for stands. 18 is really only open left and behind. Can’t go right because they’ll be in the way of the 1st.


I think each of those issues on their own could probably be handled, but all of them is a lot and frankly it’s a headache for the R&A that’s just not necessary.

[Mark Chaplin]

Niall for a major event you’d flip the lengthened 1st to be the 18th and have plenty of space.


Michael access is no different to RSG as it’s the same road at each end.


Flooding the previous winter cost Deal two Opens, it wasn’t quite “the week before”. World wars also cost the club Opens.


Now there simply isn’t enough space for the Open and everything that goes with it. Deal remains one of the U.K.’s premier championship links courses and it’s well suited to hold pretty much every event below the Open Championship.

[Ben Stephens]

If the Alfred Dunhill Links Championship ever wanted alternate venues instead of being in St Andrews - the trio at Sandwich would be perfect for it Princes (Shore/Dunes), Royal St Georges and Deal.

[Adam Lawrence]

Every time the Open goes go to RSG there is (rightly) comment about how awful the access is, given that every vehicle has to pass through a tiny medieval town (or go up a narrow private road at ten quid a pop or more if the owners see fit to increase the toll). And it's true. The best access to RSG is by train, but it's still a significant walk -- I had done my ten thousand steps for the day by the time I got to the course last year.

But the flip side is that once you get on to the course, it is vast. They could accommodate 200,000 spectators at a time on that property, if there was ever a way to get them there. RCP has all the problems of access but none of the consolations of space on the property.

Chappers says that, if the R&A was looking for another south-eastern venue, RCP would be second: he's right. Prince's is impossible at the moment, because the access is worse even than RSG, but if someone were to build a bridge across the River Stour and an access road from the A256, it would be transformed. The golf course isn't as good as RCP, but it would suddenly become a real live Open candidate.

[Tom_Doak]

Any [links] course could host The Open if the R & A wanted to go there badly enough.


The question is more, why would they expand the rota, or cut out any of the courses that are already part of it?  And we all know that's all about politics.  Portrush is into the fold partly for political reasons.  Turnberry is out for now for political reasons.  Muirfield was disqualified for political reasons, although they're likely back in now, just not officially yet.  But there is no great political reason to go to Deal, unless Royal St. George's does something that creates one.

[Michael Felton]

Michael access is no different to RSG as it’s the same road at each end.

I must admit it didn't occur to me that people would come into either one from the coast road. I was more thinking to get to RSG you have to go through Sandwich and to get to RCP you have to go through Deal and Deal is bigger and not particularly easily traversed (nor is Sandwich granted, especially from the north side).

[Noel Freeman]

I didn't want to take away from David's post on RCP's article so started another thread to not thread jack.
Just why can't RCP host another Open? Especially after seeing TOC battle the best on a similar length course and par 72. RCP has three par 3's and three par 5's would be a difference. Check out the scorecard.  Those that have been there know it is almost the same property as Royal St. Georges just adjacent to it. RSG certainly is much more wild with its humps and bumps, but RCP is outstanding and finally getting it's due for the rankings. It has hosted The Open in the long ago past, but why not again?  I'd love to hear those who are for, but moreso what are the reasons for the against?  Marvelous links course and would show herself well one July weekend in the future again I believe.

I have written extensively about this in the past on many musings on Deal over the last 20+ years.   I have spent many an hour talking about this with the club historian David Dobby and with Andrew Reynolds (who should be the greatest Club Pro in the UK given his length of service to the club, English Golf and being a great player in his own right).  Geoff Shackelford has also opined in years past.  There is nothing new to say here.  Does it deserve it?  A rousing yes!  To me, the design merit and quality/skill testing of the course is higher than many on the Rota I have played (but I'm a Deal homer).  If the SW wind is blowing it is quite a test and the closest course in spirit and ethos to TOC.  The plateau greens with the routing and loop (10-12) has so many similarities to St. Andrews.  But alas, it is so narrow a piece of duneland (the ridge from 2 that peters out around 9 and from 13-17) and even with the sea-wall being a great spectator selling point, I doubt the logistics hold.  That said on the train line from Deal to Sandwich there is a stop/platform out in the farmers field that could be used I was told years ago for people coming to watch the event and there is enough flat space for the world's largest hospitality tents.  But I'd rather keep Deal quiet and left to those who know what is one of the UK's mighty and best links.  For my 2 cents I find it superior to Sandwich for fun and to play but many will look cock-eyed at me and askance.  Then again Sir Peter Allen quipped if he had one round left in life and even after all the golf he played around the world-- it would be Deal!  Stand in the Valley of Inglorious Security and tell me you don't understand his sentiment.


Links:


https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/6/19/royal-cinque-ports-is-hosting-the-amateur-this-week.html


Some of Ebert's thoughts on work at Sandwich and Deal--


https://quadrilateral.substack.com/p/part-2-q-and-a-with-martin-ebert


Alister Tait on Deal unlikely to ever get Open Championship with some quotes by David Dobby


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2011/07/13/lost-links-open-championship/


https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2021/8/2/links-from-the-road-royal-cinque-ports

[Ben Stephens]

Any [links] course could host The Open if the R & A wanted to go there badly enough.


The question is more, why would they expand the rota, or cut out any of the courses that are already part of it?  And we all know that's all about politics.  Portrush is into the fold partly for political reasons.  Turnberry is out for now for political reasons.  Muirfield was disqualified for political reasons, although they're likely back in now, just not officially yet.  But there is no great political reason to go to Deal, unless Royal St. George's does something that creates one.

Saunton has the space to accommodate the event - Like Sandwich its awkward to drive to and being far away from a major airport doesn't help. 

[John Nixon]

If you're completely unfamiliar with the course, as I am, I did just come across this thread with a link to a video flyover: https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68594.0.html

[Richard Fisher]

I had a wonderful day at Deal on Monday in a 3-club wind, with the course running for miles. And we had the added excitement of dance legend Len Goodman playing behind us. Apparently there was a fair bit of restorative rain on Monday night, which the whole SE of England desperately needed. RCPD is unquestionably one of the best places for a game of golf in the UK.


Nonetheless I am willing to bet that Deal won't host an Open in my lifetime (I am now 63), and nor will Porthcawl or Saunton - neither of the two last being quite long or tough enough, in the end. This is a GCA thread that resurfaces in various forms every couple of years, but I think we have to assume that


The Old Course
Muirfield
R Troon
Carnoustie
Hoylake
R Birkdale
R St George's
R Portrush


constitute the rota at present, with both Turnberry and Lytham currently sidelined. RStG is the most spacious open venue on the rota, once you have got there, but Deal makes terrific use of a relatively small pocket of land, with hardly any room for grandstands and the infrastructure nowadays required (and I think that would be true even if the 1st became the 18th, for these purposes).


The Amateur has some really interesting venues coming up, including Ballyliffin in 2024, but the R&A hasn't taken its other major championship to Devon since 1931, and again I don't see that changing. I personally think it very unlikely that the Open (unlike the Amateur) would ever go to a venue in the Republic of Ireland. Others may disagree!

[Marty Bonnar]

I had a wonderful day at Deal on Monday in a 3-club wind, with the course running for miles. And we had the added excitement of dance legend Len Goodman playing behind us. Apparently there was a fair bit of restorative rain on Monday night, which the whole SE of England desperately needed. RCPD is unquestionably one of the best places for a game of golf in the UK.

Whenever one of my usual playing partners scores a double-bogey at a par5 (sadly more and more common these days), it’s become customary for one of us to shout “SEVEN” in Len’s ‘Strictly’ way. Hilarious, of course!
F.