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Jerry Rossi

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Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« on: July 16, 2022, 11:16:54 AM »
Last year I meet with Anthony Pioppi to review the archives at Blue Mound.  During that we stumbled across some interesting stuff including the 1924 drawing of the proposed routing by Seth Raynor and his hole by hole description of the proposed course.  The most exciting find was a bunch of drawings (most likely) done by Charles Banks showing his ideas for bunkering each hole.  We also found the entry in the annual report showing the hiring of Banks.  I also had someone reach out to me and donate an aerial picture from Sept. 1927.  All of these are below. 
Some background info:  the club was founded in 1903 but moved to it's current location, at the course Raynor built, in 1926.  Course opened that Spring.  We have found no evidence that Banks was part of the initial build. 
I wanted to share all this because 1. its super cool for a Raynor geek like me and 2. because I'm curious if anyone has any insights as to why the course wasn't completely bunkered from the start.  You can see in the 1927 picture that the course was "missing" many of the bunkers that Raynor had in his drawing from 1924 and that Banks put in the 1927 drawings. 
My completely uneducated guess is that Raynor left the course as it was in the 1927 picture with the idea that the club could have some input on the final placement of his proposed fairway bunkers.  After his death the club then made the logical decision to hire his protege to finish the job.
Here are the pictures - thanks for checking them out and for any thoughts you might have.


The 1927 aerial:





Raynor's drawing:





Raynor's hole by hole:





Banks' drawing of holes 1 & 2 (today's 10/11):





Banks' drawing of holes 3 & 4:





Banks' drawing of 6:





Banks' drawing of 5,7 and 8:





Banks' drawing of 9 and 10:





Banks' drawing of 13:





Banks' drawing of 11,12 and 13:





Banks' drawing of 14, 15 and 16:





Banks' drawing of 16 (again) with some notes that don't look like his handwriting:





Banks' drawing of 17 and 18:





Annual report regarding hiring Banks:


Instagram: @putt4dough24

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2022, 02:44:52 PM »
Are the nines today reversed from Raynor's numbering?  Must be, I swear the Redan is the 13th and the Punchbowl the 8th.


Also I am curious what aspect of the 9th at Chicago Golf Club Raynor was seeking to copy in the 3rd hole on this plan.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2022, 04:32:43 PM »
Are the nines today reversed from Raynor's numbering?  Must be, I swear the Redan is the 13th and the Punchbowl the 8th.


Also I am curious what aspect of the 9th at Chicago Golf Club Raynor was seeking to copy in the 3rd hole on this plan.
I just played there a week ago with 2 other GCAer's. My first time and yes the 9's must have been reversed because 10 is now 1. Also I asked what hole Chicago was recreating to our host and he said he has never gotten an answer. I couldn't think of one from memory either.

Some comments:
  • Love this course and was in great shape.
  • They could still take down some additional trees.
  • From the back tees with wind the long par 4's are a bear! 460-480 and too much for me comfortably.
  • The punchbowl version there is very good.
  • I love the par 3's (I birdied the first 2 and almost had 3 in a row with the last coming up a foot short).
  • The greens weren't as fast as they could have been as it had just rained.
  • Was exposed to wind and they have native prairie grasses which appeals visually quite well.
My favorite course in Wisconsin, which has quite a few to compare to in the last 20 plus years.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jerry Rossi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2022, 06:35:03 PM »
Are the nines today reversed from Raynor's numbering?  Must be, I swear the Redan is the 13th and the Punchbowl the 8th.


Also I am curious what aspect of the 9th at Chicago Golf Club Raynor was seeking to copy in the 3rd hole on this plan.


Tom - yes the 9's have been flipped and our current 12th (the 3rd in SJR's notes) is a hogback fairway.  I don't remember what about that hole resembles 9 at CGC.


Also - our current 9th hole is named "Chicago GC" per the hole by hole notes.
Instagram: @putt4dough24

Jerry Rossi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2022, 10:18:10 AM »

Jeff - I'm glad you had another enjoyable round at BM.  You are correct that the 9's have been flipped (most likely when carts were introduced to the course seeing as it would be tough to get them to 1 (now 10).  I'd LOVE to see them flipped back to the way SJR left it. 


As for Chicago Golf, if you're referring to the plaque on our 9th hole, we just went off the Raynor hole by hole for naming that one since it's not an "ideal hole" or "template".  As for the other, I'm not sure and I'm as curious at Tom as to what SJR was thinking in terms of similarities with our 12th and the 9th at CGC.


As for trees - I'm on the greens committee and can tell you that under the direction of our greenskeeper Alex Beson-Crone - we have taken out anywhere from 800-1000 trees since he started almost 4 years ago and we will continue to try and get the course to the point where trees aren't an issue but it probably won't be like CGC (mostly treeless).  Conditions have improved dramatically during his tenure with the turf health being so good right now that we're lucky to have such a consistently good playing surface.



Are the nines today reversed from Raynor's numbering?  Must be, I swear the Redan is the 13th and the Punchbowl the 8th.


Also I am curious what aspect of the 9th at Chicago Golf Club Raynor was seeking to copy in the 3rd hole on this plan.
I just played there a week ago with 2 other GCAer's. My first time and yes the 9's must have been reversed because 10 is now 1. Also I asked what hole Chicago was recreating to our host and he said he has never gotten an answer. I couldn't think of one from memory either.

Some comments:
  • Love this course and was in great shape.
  • They could still take down some additional trees.
  • From the back tees with wind the long par 4's are a bear! 460-480 and too much for me comfortably.
  • The punchbowl version there is very good.
  • I love the par 3's (I birdied the first 2 and almost had 3 in a row with the last coming up a foot short).
  • The greens weren't as fast as they could have been as it had just rained.
  • Was exposed to wind and they have native prairie grasses which appeals visually quite well.
My favorite course in Wisconsin, which has quite a few to compare to in the last 20 plus years.
Instagram: @putt4dough24

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2022, 11:50:09 AM »
One could spend all day on the (current) 10th green.  What is the story with the (current) 2nd green in the aerial-there appears to be two separate greens?


What a splendid golf course.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2022, 02:38:35 PM »

Jeff - I'm glad you had another enjoyable round at BM.  You are correct that the 9's have been flipped (most likely when carts were introduced to the course seeing as it would be tough to get them to 1 (now 10).  I'd LOVE to see them flipped back to the way SJR left it. 


As for Chicago Golf, if you're referring to the plaque on our 9th hole, we just went off the Raynor hole by hole for naming that one since it's not an "ideal hole" or "template".  As for the other, I'm not sure and I'm as curious at Tom as to what SJR was thinking in terms of similarities with our 12th and the 9th at CGC.


As for trees - I'm on the greens committee and can tell you that under the direction of our greenskeeper Alex Beson-Crone - we have taken out anywhere from 800-1000 trees since he started almost 4 years ago and we will continue to try and get the course to the point where trees aren't an issue but it probably won't be like CGC (mostly treeless).  Conditions have improved dramatically during his tenure with the turf health being so good right now that we're lucky to have such a consistently good playing surface.




Jerry, kudos to your superintendent as it wasn't easy to get the course ready this spring with all the rain. I don't think there are too many trees, but could envision an Oakmont style vision which seems like the 1927 aerial. Clubhouse is charming and a strong caddie program.  Steph, an Evan Scholar with her green bib, was a charming sophomore at madtown, wonderful young lady. Overall, I consider BM like Shoreacres little brother, which is quite the compliment.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Peter Flory

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Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2022, 02:51:26 PM »
This is what I love about this website. 

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2022, 10:36:37 PM »
One could spend all day on the (current) 10th green.  What is the story with the (current) 2nd green in the aerial-there appears to be two separate greens?


What a splendid golf course.


The aerial is from September 1927 and the Banks drawings are from October 1927, so the aerial matches up quite nicely with Banks recommendations.  If you look at the notes for Hole 11 (todays 2nd), Banks suggests that they mow the lower right third as green.  He says: “Try it and see how you like it.”


Jerry Rossi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2022, 11:23:01 AM »

Siting there reading that note with Anthony was the peak of me feeling like a GCA nerd!   As I’ve said before…”we like it Charles!  Good suggestion”

One could spend all day on the (current) 10th green.  What is the story with the (current) 2nd green in the aerial-there appears to be two separate greens?


What a splendid golf course.


The aerial is from September 1927 and the Banks drawings are from October 1927, so the aerial matches up quite nicely with Banks recommendations.  If you look at the notes for Hole 11 (todays 2nd), Banks suggests that they mow the lower right third as green.  He says: “Try it and see how you like it.”
Instagram: @putt4dough24

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2022, 11:42:08 AM »
So Anthony Pioppi emailed me, and since he no longer posts here, he wanted me to share a few things he noted when he found the documents.



“ I want to point out that these are unequivocally Banks drawings. There is nothing to lead us to believe that is not Banks's writing.

These are the only known complete set of hole-by-hole drawings done by Macdonald-Raynor-Banks

Other than the par-3s, Banks's bunkering plan does not follow anything Raynor drew up. To illustrate how much Banks disregarded Raynor's drawing, Raynor had Bottle Hole bunkering on the current second hole and Banks had it on the current fourth.”.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2022, 11:53:45 AM »
I would also agree that these are the only full set of hole by hole drawings we have from a CBM, Raynor, Banks course. Ross of course had hundred, but we should truly treasure these drawings.


Banks deviated quite a bit from Raynor’s original bunkering plan. I am not sure why that was of course. For example he put bottle bunkering on the Alps hole


I think Banks was probably “hired” because his firm had already done the design. Of course the document is cool as Banks lost the MPCC, Cypress, and probably Camargo jobs after Raynor died.


Finally I think Bret and Anthony would agree here that the current 14th is really based on the fifth at Garden City rather than the 12th. We have debated this quite a bit recently, and have a lot of reason to believe this to be true. Probably just a transcription error along the way, but certainly something I had noticed as odd as far back as when I played there in 2014.

Jerry Rossi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2022, 02:43:37 PM »

Nigel - any insights as to why we (Blue Mound) would have hired Banks in the first place?  The course was clearly done before Raynor died, given that it opened after and had to have been grassed before he passed away/the winter of 1925.   There are clearly several bunkers that Raynor laid out that aren't in the 1927 aerial and that was taken before Banks was hired/his drawings.  Comparing what's in Banks' drawings to what Raynor drew in 1924 it looks like the club didn't really implement much of what Banks suggested (based partially on what was in the 1937 aerial (which aligns much more with what Raynor wrote up in the hole by hole and his overall course sketch).


I plan to revisit the archives to see if I can find anything about if/when Banks was ever at the club during the initial build or what, if any of his work was implemented.


Oh and I do have the drawings in my possession, tucked away in a safety deposit box after high quality scans were made recently.

I would also agree that these are the only full set of hole by hole drawings we have from a CBM, Raynor, Banks course. Ross of course had hundred, but we should truly treasure these drawings.


Banks deviated quite a bit from Raynor’s original bunkering plan. I am not sure why that was of course. For example he put bottle bunkering on the Alps hole


I think Banks was probably “hired” because his firm had already done the design. Of course the document is cool as Banks lost the MPCC, Cypress, and probably Camargo jobs after Raynor died.


Finally I think Bret and Anthony would agree here that the current 14th is really based on the fifth at Garden City rather than the 12th. We have debated this quite a bit recently, and have a lot of reason to believe this to be true. Probably just a transcription error along the way, but certainly something I had noticed as odd as far back as when I played there in 2014.
Instagram: @putt4dough24

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2022, 08:34:55 PM »

Finally I think Bret and Anthony would agree here that the current 14th is really based on the fifth at Garden City rather than the 12th. We have debated this quite a bit recently, and have a lot of reason to believe this to be true. Probably just a transcription error along the way, but certainly something I had noticed as odd as far back as when I played there in 2014.




I don't know about Bret and Anthony, but there is no way Macdonald / Raynor / Banks patterned any of their holes after the 12th at Garden City with its famously wild green.


I believe I did read one of their hole by hole write-ups years ago that referred to the 5th at Garden City, and particularly its green and how it had a narrow middle and widened to the back.  This is odd, too, because the drawing above looks a little like the present 5th at Garden City . . . but before 1950 the hole was much shorter and the green was tucked to the left and it didn't really resemble that description as far as I have been able to discern.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2022, 11:05:51 PM »

Finally I think Bret and Anthony would agree here that the current 14th is really based on the fifth at Garden City rather than the 12th. We have debated this quite a bit recently, and have a lot of reason to believe this to be true. Probably just a transcription error along the way, but certainly something I had noticed as odd as far back as when I played there in 2014.




I don't know about Bret and Anthony, but there is no way Macdonald / Raynor / Banks patterned any of their holes after the 12th at Garden City with its famously wild green.


I believe I did read one of their hole by hole write-ups years ago that referred to the 5th at Garden City, and particularly its green and how it had a narrow middle and widened to the back.  This is odd, too, because the drawing above looks a little like the present 5th at Garden City . . . but before 1950 the hole was much shorter and the green was tucked to the left and it didn't really resemble that description as far as I have been able to discern.


Tom,


That is exactly what I was trying to say. This was patterned after the fifth not the twelfth at GCGC. In fact the 1st at Ocean Links is an excellent example of the Garden City hole you mention, the old fifth. Obviously I have never played Garden City and you know the place quite well, but I think we are saying the same thing.


Nigel

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2022, 12:15:50 AM »
Jerry I think your answer as to why Banks was contacted can be found in the 1927 (I assume this is from early 1928?) annual report you posted,


“On recommendations of Chas H. Banks, Golf Architect, partner of the late Seth J. Raynor, who designed the course, work was started for its completion, as originally laid out by Mr. Raynor. The Board of Directors appropriated $1,200 for the necessary improvements. The sum of $570.00 was used in such work during the fall.”


It seems to me that work was being done on the course to Raynor’s plans through 1927.  As to why Banks changed the plans? I really do not know unless money was getting tight through 1927.

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2022, 11:22:10 AM »
Regarding the switching of the nines at Blue Mound: The nines were flipped at Blue Mound in 1955, for the Miller High Life tournament:


Golfdom., June 1955



Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2022, 11:48:46 AM »
Jerry I think your answer as to why Banks was contacted can be found in the 1927 (I assume this is from early 1928?) annual report you posted,


“On recommendations of Chas H. Banks, Golf Architect, partner of the late Seth J. Raynor, who designed the course, work was started for its completion, as originally laid out by Mr. Raynor. The Board of Directors appropriated $1,200 for the necessary improvements. The sum of $570.00 was used in such work during the fall.”


It seems to me that work was being done on the course to Raynor’s plans through 1927.  As to why Banks changed the plans? I really do not know unless money was getting tight through 1927.


I think it is important to remember that Charles Banks was Seth Raynor’s partner while Raynor worked on Blue Mound.  Any changes suggested by Banks were likely inline with Raynor’s plan.  The 1924 drawing is more of a proposed conceptual drawing that was meant to give the members an idea of what the course is going to look like.  I don’t think they were trying to follow the conceptual drawing to a T because it just wasn’t detailed enough.  Many of the greens are shown as rounded squares rather than  Punchbowls and Road hole greens.  It was a general scheme, which only becomes detailed when you read the description of the holes.


Banks drawing are great, but many of his drawings are also very generalized without detail.  If the hole was O.K. (according to Banks), he didn’t bother drawing in the existing fairway and green side bunkers.  The only holes he shows any details on are the holes that appear to be unfinished, or the holes he was making suggestions on.  My interpretation would be that Banks was trying to finish the course to Raynor’s plans, but helping the club with the location or placement of those bunkers.  I feel like Banks also offered a few alternatives that would have likely made the course harder, but the club didn’t appear to take him up on many of those suggestions. 


If you look closely at the 1927 aerial, you can see that certain holes are in different stages of development.  The original 10th and 11th hole have very patchy fairways, which looks to me like they are still growing in.  They also do not have fairway bunkers but the greens are completed and bunkered.  Other holes such as the original first and second look like they have been in the ground a little longer with their healthy looking turf and fully bunkered fairways and greens.  The original 9th has a patchy fairway but is fully bunkered.  I think the aerial picture shows us how developed some of the holes were compared to others. 


After looking at the 1937 aerial, it appears many of the bunkers Banks suggested on the unfinished holes were implemented.  For example, his recommendations on the original 3rd, 6th, 10th, 11th, and 14th were carried out.  In some instances they may have replaced a suggested bunker with a grove of trees?  On the second to last page of the drawings there is a little chart that shows a handful of holes that they deemed O.K..  Next, they  list the 2nd and 5th hole as changes to be made in 1928. The third row they list a handful of holes for 1927 and a few holes under the category 1927 Minor changes.  The 1928 numbers are written in black ink versus pencil and you can see a few black ink check marks next to the bunkers the club appears to have implement by 1937.




Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blue Mound G&CC drawings
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2022, 12:26:17 PM »
Yes Bret, you said it much better than I did. The schematic maps often appeared in newspapers and course pamphlets. It is a generalization, and not something you would go about as a plan for construction. The Banks drawings were more detailed, but still lacked what you would find from a Ross or Flynn.


In no way am I trying to minimize how cool this stuff is. Anthony just made the discovery that the plan for the current Tenth at Blue Mound is extremely similar to what is in the ground at the first at Shoreacres. So by the transitive property we could have the hypothesis that the first at Shoreacres might be based on the 6th at Lido. Which of course Shoreacres does not have named holes. This stuff is invaluable.


Nigel

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