Leaving the flag in. How many are still doing it.

[Bill Seitz]

This is easily my least favorite rule change of the last 10 or 20 years.  Jaka says it's faster, and maybe it is for a single, or group who all like the flag in.  But it's real pain in the ass to get to the green, then have to ask everyone their preference, then put it back in for one guy, but take it back out for another.  And if you try to agree beforehand to make a decision as group, someone is gonna be pissed off about not getting their way. 

[JohnVDB]

This is easily my least favorite rule change of the last 10 or 20 years.  Jaka says it's faster, and maybe it is for a single, or group who all like the flag in.  But it's real pain in the ass to get to the green, then have to ask everyone their preference, then put it back in for one guy, but take it back out for another.  And if you try to agree beforehand to make a decision as group, someone is gonna be pissed off about not getting their way.

I’ve played with hundreds of people over the last few years and haven’t had any issues like this.  I think most people who leave it in can go either way.  Even Matt Fitzpatrick will frequently leave it out if a previous player in the group had it removed.


As for pace of play, I spoke with one of the tour officials shortly after the rule was introduced and he felt it sped things up because on long putts, the player and his caddie would discuss the putt and in the past, he then had to wait for the caddie to go and either remove the flag or attend it.  Now he didn’t.

[Luke Sutton]

I play golf with an OBGYN who wears a hat that says “don’t pull out” with a pic of a golf flag and his group logo. Uses it for marketing!

[JLahrman]

The issues seem to arise if you play with people who actually care whether their putts go in or not. I assure everyone, you will have no such problems if I'm in your group!

I play golf with an OBGYN who wears a hat that says “don’t pull out” with a pic of a golf flag and his group logo. Uses it for marketing!

Good one, that's worse than my jokes.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I believe more putts are rejected by the flagstick than helped, although that may vary by flagstick type/circumference.

This study says to leave it in:  https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/


So does Dave Pelz. [size=78%]https://golf.com/news/tournaments/dave-pelz-the-science-proves-you-should-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/[/size]

[MCirba]

I believe more putts are rejected by the flagstick than helped, although that may vary by flagstick type/circumference.

This study says to leave it in:  https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/


So does Dave Pelz. [size=78%]https://golf.com/news/tournaments/dave-pelz-the-science-proves-you-should-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/[/size]

Wayne,


Don't provide Bausch with scientific evidence that he's correct.


I much prefer my own myths and superstitions, thanks. 

[Kalen Braley]

The one link that provided data doesn't take into account how often that scenario would actually occur while playing...

How often do you hit a putt that would have both gone 9 feet past the pin, and hit the center of the pin at the same time?  Of course it occurs, but for even the average 15 capper, maybe once per year if that?  It seems far more likely to occur if you're chipping and hit one thin, in which case the pin would have already been in anyways.

Its like one of those stats that brags about increasing sales year over year by 100%....from 1 customer to 2.

[Jim_Kennedy]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

Generally, we leave it in until all the putts become short, then take it out to finish. Adds zero time to the length of a round.

[MCirba]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

Generally, we leave it in until all the putts become short, then take it out to finish. Adds zero time to the length of a round.

Jim,


Finally some science that supports my personal bias!   Thank you!   


Take that Joe Bausch!!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Flagsticks generally help (overall), but on putts that are short enough that you are going to control your distance (your capture speed) that you don't need any help, it can "only" hurt you.

[Sean_A]

I was taught the pin never helps a good shot and I still believe it. In my experience, the pin in is by far the most helpful when hitting it after a thinned shot. I never thinned a putt but I have bum rushed many from long distance.

Generally I think if you don't like it in, the pin won't be helpful. And vice versa.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

I prefer the pin in at all times - particularly on awkward short 3-4 ft putts.


I have far more confidence aiming at the flagstick with pace than I do the back of the hole. This is particularly useful  on a course with fairly wild greens.


Having said that, I’m not going to ask for the flag to be replaced if it is already out. Unless it’s matchplay and I need to utilise every psychological trick in my bag! 😉

[Philip Gordillo]

My club recently switched to wooden flagsticks after our renovation so I started to pull them out on short putts because of increased ball rejections. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am a little unusual in regard to flagsticks. I will keep it in on long putts and pull it on short ones. However, if I have a chip or pitch that that I think I should make I will pull the flag. I encourages me to hit it the correct speed. With it out I feel I should make it. With it in, it feels as though I should just get it close. Just a mind game.

[Rick Lane]

I leave it in all the time, except if someone asks, as they go to pull it, I say I don’t care.  Also, if the flag is wobbly in the hole and sitting crooked, I want it out.   
As to pace of play, if the group in front has it in, it allows you to use a rangefinder as they play, which saves a lot of time too….

[JESII]

30 seconds to pull it out and 30 more to put it back in?!?


How long does it take you to tee it up? Maybe we eliminate the tee and really fly around the course…

[John Kavanaugh]

My club recently switched to wooden flagsticks after our renovation so I started to pull them out on short putts because of increased ball rejections.

At my old course when the tour came to town they would get to play to regulation pins that would accept a ball. As soon as they left the members got the big fat fancy pins that matched the new logo.

[JLahrman]

30 seconds to pull it out and 30 more to put it back in?!?


How long does it take you to tee it up? Maybe we eliminate the tee and really fly around the course…

I'm talking about someone walking up to the hole taking it out, and placing it away from the hole. Same thing putting it back in. If done efficiently it doesn't take that long. But how many groups on the course do you see doing things efficiently?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I was taught the pin never helps a good shot and I still believe it.

Depending on your definition of "good." The flagstick can only hurt a ball that would otherwise go in, but it almost always helps a ball that would miss that still hits the flagstick, and that situation is more common from certain distances than others.

I've seen Johnny Miller even say on a chip that lipped out "see right there, it hit the flagstick!" No, Johnny, it didn't, or the ball wouldn't even fit in the hole (the flagstick was not leaning at all) if it could hit the flagstick when it's barely halfway in the hole.

The flagstick helps shots that would miss but otherwise hit the middle 2.18" of the hole (1.68" + 0.5"). If it's hitting the lip, the flagstick isn't helping. The capture speed on the middle 2.18" is higher, but it's not so high a flagstick hit doesn't hole the ball or keep it closer to the hole than it would have otherwise finished.

Hence my rule: if I'm going to control the distance the ball rolls to within 2-3', I take it out. Outside of that, it stays in because more often than it hurts, it will help. Also, it aids in depth perception.

[John Kavanaugh]

Especially after the cart ballers remember where they put their putter cover, towel and three wedges. It's a F'ing Easter egg hunt at the conclusion of every hole.

[JLahrman]

Especially after the cart ballers remember where they put their putter cover, towel and three wedges. It's a F'ing Easter egg hunt at the conclusion of every hole.

Yeah every group doesn't do 30 seconds to pull the flag and 30 seconds to replace it, but all it takes is one group taking that long to slow down play.

[John Kavanaugh]

The people who refuse to admit they are slow will never embrace that which prevents slow play.

[Daryl David]

+1

[Mark Mammel]

Take a look at this.
https://www.insidescience.org/news/should-golfers-keep-flagstick-cup-when-they-puttI do like the conclusion: "it's better to keep it in if you're going to miss anyway."