Since Doak is easily amused…

[Joel_Stewart]

Willie Mays. Edwin Moses. Simon Biles. Tiger. MJ. Nope. Greatness is never overrated.

Greatness is never overrated but the term is overused.


On this web site you have great courses, great greens, great holes, great experiences, great memberships, etc.


IMHO, you have a dozen truly great golf courses in the world and then everything else.

[John Kavanaugh]

Because if you haven’t played them how could they be?

[Garland Bayley]

Greatness is subjective. MJ has been put forward as GOAT. Sure he had individual skills, but since since basketball is a team game he falls way short of GOAT.

Similarly greatest golf course to one person can be a nightmare to another.

Greatness is overrated.

PS Could Willie pitch as well as Babe?

[David Cronan]

Greatness is subjective. MJ has been put forward as GOAT. Sure he had individual skills, but since since basketball is a team game he falls way short of GOAT.

Is this intended irony, or simply an accidental gift?

[Ira Fishman]

Joel,


I agree that the term greatness is thrown around too easily. However, given the number of courses in the world, I think more than a dozen qualify as great. But very interested in which courses you would have on the list.


Garland,


I never used the term GOAT although I would argue that the names I mentioned either are or darn close.


Willie Mays did not pitch, but he played a mean game of golf from the front tees as he got older.


Ira

[Carl Johnson]

"Great" in what sense?  From my standpoint, most "greatness" ratings are meaningless, so while I find them interesting, I don't put much stock in them.  Great for who?  In what circumstances?  Too many variables to consider.  Fun and harmless to think about, but in the end not a lot of significance for me.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sometimes the metrics of greatness are so clear and well defined that there can be no argument. Even 50 and 100 years later, and without any 'first hand' seeing whatsoever, I can know for certain and don't need any expert to tell me or support me in my belief, that Mantle's triple crown season of .350+ batting average, 50+ home runs and 130 RBIs was a GREAT season, or that Gehrig's 370+ average, 45+ home runs and 175 RBIs (while following Ruth in the order!) was perhaps the GREATEST season of all time.

But with architects themselves consistently telling us that greatness in gca is "subjective", and with the experts and wannabe experts telling us that we have to play a course not just once but many times, and in all conditions, in order to determine or even understand its greatness, we naturally come to think of greatness in golf courses as being a RELATIVE/COMPARATIVE assessment (and ranking), instead of an absolute or objective one.

They can say that all they want; I don't believe them. (And, in truth, I don't think that in their heart of hearts they believe it either.)

[Bruce Katona]

In random order:

1. Lionel Messi
2. Pele
3. Sir Bobby Charlton
4. George Best
5. Franz Beckenbauer
6. Zidane
7. Johan Cruyff
8. Cristiano Ronaldo
9. your favorite
10. your favorite


Pretty good list for a Yank. 


Everyone knows the best of the best when you see them play or, in this case, play them.

[Sean_A]

Sometimes the metrics of greatness are so clear and well defined that there can be no argument. Even 50 and 100 years later, and without any 'first hand' seeing whatsoever, I can know for certain and don't need any expert to tell me or support me in my belief, that Mantle's triple crown season of .350+ batting average, 50+ home runs and 130 RBIs was a GREAT season, or that Gehrig's 370+ average, 45+ home runs and 175 RBIs (while following Ruth in the order!) was perhaps the GREATEST season of all time.

But with architects themselves consistently telling us that greatness in gca is "subjective", and with the experts and wannabe experts telling us that we have to play a course not just once but many times, and in all conditions, in order to determine or even understand its greatness, we naturally come to think of greatness in golf courses as being a RELATIVE/COMPARATIVE assessment (and ranking), instead of an absolute or objective one.

They can say that all they want; I don't believe them. (And, in truth, I don't think that in their heart of hearts they believe it either.)

But you picked two seasons from players whose comparative numbers were outstanding. Where do these numbers come from in golf design? Ball players have the goal of getting on base and scoring runs. What are the down and dirty goals for archies? I don't think it's anywhere near as clear for archies as it is for ball players.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

A few questions/comments:

1)  Did we ever get clarification on the "greatness is over-rated" quip.  I understand it can be used to compare two things, but I don't think that was the original context from the other thread.

2)  If we're limiting "Great" golf courses to just 12 as was suggested, who is in and out from that list?

3)  Garland, I'm not following.  MJ was an exceptional team player, you need to do your homework on how he operated with his teammates.

P.S.  I haven't seen it suggested yet, but I think 'don't let great be the enemy of good' is what's really applicable here as opposed to the traditional saying that includes perfect....because perfect doesn't really exist.

[Peter Pallotta]

"What are the down and dirty goals for archies?" is an excellent way to ask the question.
The trouble is, I don't think today's working architects would 'pin themselves down' by giving me an answer.
But, I just can't make myself believe that the best of today's archies DON'T have down and dirty goals, and I'd be very surprised if those goals weren't pretty much the SAME ones that, in the past, produced (immediately and/or over time) and continue to give life to courses like, say:
St Andrews
Dornoch
Melbourne
Cypress Point
Sand Hills
Merion
Pinehurst 2
Muirfield
Shinnecock
Crystal Downs
NGLA
Oakmont
Pine Valley 
Pebble
Portrush
Rye
Royal County Down
Augusta
All very different, and certainly nothing like the 'clarity of metrics' of baseball's RBIs and batting averages...but are there really NO metrics there, at least for those with eyes qualified to see/discern them? 

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel,


I agree that the term greatness is thrown around too easily. However, given the number of courses in the world, I think more than a dozen qualify as great. But very interested in which courses you would have on the list.

Ira

There’s really no secret to the lists, the top 10 or 12 are head and shoulders above the rest.


As an example, two weeks ago I played Oakmont for the first time. The very next day I played Inverness. Oakmont is rated #7 and Inverness #65 in the world rankings.  Comparing the two there’s no comparison yet Inverness is fantastic. Oakmont and the others in the top 10 are extraordinary. 

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

Why don't you check out what Scottie Pippen has to say about MJ's team play.

[Garland Bayley]

Ira,

Not trying to say you said he was GOAT. Just that many have said it.

Jordan was simply an over hyped ball player, where too many fall for the hype.

[Sean_A]

Kalen,

Why don't you check out what Scottie Pippen has to say about MJ's team play.

And how many rings do Scott and MJ have? Whatever overhyped stuff MJ was doing it seemed to be somewhat successful.

Ciao

[David Kelly]

Sometimes the metrics of greatness are so clear and well defined that there can be no argument. Even 50 and 100 years later, and without any 'first hand' seeing whatsoever, I can know for certain and don't need any expert to tell me or support me in my belief, that Mantle's triple crown season of .350+ batting average, 50+ home runs and 130 RBIs was a GREAT season, or that Gehrig's 370+ average, 45+ home runs and 175 RBIs (while following Ruth in the order!) was perhaps the GREATEST season of all time.

Gehrig's great 1927 (.373/47/173) was a truly great season but by all metrics (WAR, OPS, OPS+, WAA, Win Shares, RC/G, rOBA) it was only the second best season on his own team that year.  Kind of like how Shinnecock is a truly great golf course but only the second best course in its neighborhood.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Polishing gems over the last 20-25 years certainly hasn't hurt either, which has created a greater pool of errrr, greatness. 25 years ago would anyone have been really excited about an invite or go out of their way to play say Sleepy Hollow or Philly Cricket?

You know greatness when you see/experience it. It may be subtle but some do it better than others.

[Ronald Montesano]

What Alan said above:

"Polishing gems over the last 20-25 years certainly hasn't hurt either, which has created a greater pool of errrr, greatness. 25 years ago would anyone have been really excited about an invite or go out of their way to play say Sleepy Hollow or Philly Cricket?

You know greatness when you see/experience it. It may be subtle but some do it better than others."

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Why don't you check out what Scottie Pippen has to say about MJ's team play.

Garland,

Scottie had his opportunities sans MJ and we know how that worked out....

And he wasn't the only one on the team who hated MJ, he pushed guys mercilessly hard, but without it its quite possible they wouldn't have won even 3 chips much less 6.

P.S.  Jordan left a lot of money on the table via smaller contracts with the Bulls to get other players and keep important ones on the team, like Pippen. What other premium player in the modern era has done that?  0

[cary lichtenstein]

Can a course be too great?   Are Pine Valley or Oakmont for example truly superior to “plenty good enough”  - say Moraine or Glens Falls.


Just like the Tooler Twins, “nothing is dead solid perfect.”


There.

Pine Valley is great, Oakmont is just HARD, not great by a long shot

[Garland Bayley]

...Scottie had his opportunities sans MJ and we know how that worked out....

MJ had his opportunities sans Scottie and we know how that worked out.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

What Alan said above:

Thanks Ronald - I once again fell foul to cut/pasting removing the formatting....

[Pete_Pittock]

Does it amuse him that he is among the most recognizable people from Traverse City along with the Lagina brothers?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Kalen,

Why don't you check out what Scottie Pippen has to say about MJ's team play.

Garland,

Scottie had his opportunities sans MJ and we know how that worked out....

And he wasn't the only one on the team who hated MJ, he pushed guys mercilessly hard, but without it its quite possible they wouldn't have won even 3 chips much less 6.

P.S.  Jordan left a lot of money on the table via smaller contracts with the Bulls to get other players and keep important ones on the team, like Pippen. What other premium player in the modern era has done that?  0

Tim Duncan did this in San Antonio
Dirk did this in Dallas
Lebron and Wade did this in Miami
Durant did this at Golden State

and those are just a few players who took pay cuts to keep or bring in better talent to their rosters. Currently it looks like Harden is doing the same thing in Philly.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Why don't you check out what Scottie Pippen has to say about MJ's team play.

Garland,

Scottie had his opportunities sans MJ and we know how that worked out....

And he wasn't the only one on the team who hated MJ, he pushed guys mercilessly hard, but without it its quite possible they wouldn't have won even 3 chips much less 6.

P.S.  Jordan left a lot of money on the table via smaller contracts with the Bulls to get other players and keep important ones on the team, like Pippen. What other premium player in the modern era has done that?  0

Tim Duncan did this in San Antonio
Dirk did this in Dallas
Lebron and Wade did this in Miami
Durant did this at Golden State

and those are just a few players who took pay cuts to keep or bring in better talent to their rosters. Currently it looks like Harden is doing the same thing in Philly.

Ben, fair points here...

Although Wade and Bron's don't really count. They were making almost $20 Mill per season and gave up 1.5 mill and 1 mill respectively.

Either way the narrative that MJ wasn't an exceptional team guy is completely bogus. even if he espoused the bad cop role to get his rings...