Golf course “influencers”

[Ally Mcintosh]

Are rankings and ratings now really just an output driven by numerous social media “influencers”?

Were our “best” golf courses always decided this way? There just used to be a bunch of really good courses: We didn’t get what we are supposed to like rammed down our throat by a collective who pretend to know more than everyone else…. Or did we? Just in a more subtle, slow way?

[Tom_Doak]

It's kinda always been that way.  Before social media, it was TV . . . tournament courses that appeared on TV every year were very prominent in the rankings.  Why else would places like Firestone, Butler National, LaCosta and Torrey Pines have been on there?


Not sure that was either subtle or slow, but it was a definite factor.

[Peter Pallotta]

Speaking for myself, Ally, I was not very smart back then.
In the old days, when the experts told me that Glen Abbey was a top 20 course, I believed them.
Same as when every country-club-for-a-day built in the 90s by Carrick or McBroom debuted high up in Canada's Top 100 -- I just assumed the raters and writers and well-travelled types knew a whole lot better than I did, and that great/excellent golf courses were being built just about every other day.
And even though the Taboos and Magnas and Chateau Whistlers and Angus Glens and Copper Creeks and Glen Abbeys have all subsequently dropped like stones in those very same rankings lists, I still think the experts know better than me -- but, being not so dumb anymore, I'm now a little more suspicious.
I mean, if the experts could get it so wrong back then, maybe they are not so right now either, eh? (Or, freak me out, maybe they were in fact right back then, and are wrong now!)
Sure, none of the raters who thought Glen Abbey an excellent golf course (or who for 3+ decades had Fazio's The National near or at the top spot) are likely still rating today, but why would I think that their 'descendants' are any better at the job than they were? A rose by any other name, as the saying goes, no?
So, yes: these days I am willing to believe it when the lists tell me that C&C's Cabot Links so quickly and easily vaults past perennial No. 1 St. George's as the best golf course in the country, and that Stanley Thomson was such a towering genius that -- even with Whitman's Cabot Cliffs almost immediately nabbing the No. 3 spot -- he is still singlehandedly responsible for building Canada's 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th best golf courses!
As I say, I am willing to believe that the experts and writers and well-travelled types are right; but these days I do have my doubts -- and am a bit more skeptical that great/excellent golf courses are being built just about every other day.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Remember when Shadow Creek premiered in the top 10?

[Cal Carlisle]

Seems to me lists and rankings drive social media. I have a tendency to fall prey to a good story but most influencers seem to lean heavily on ranked clubs, the golden hour, and solar flair. The written word? Not so much.


Does The Golfer’s Journal fall under traditional media, social media, or both. In any case - I'm a fan.

[Thomas Dai]

The impact of social media has imo been huge.
As an example I'd suggest Durness. It might be a terrific course, it might have an amazing location but until fairly recently it was essentially unknown. Over the last few years photos and write-ups galore have been posted on social media etc about it, many by themselves, and as a consequence visitors and a higher profile in rankings (from an essentially zero starting point) have resulted.
atb

[Sean_A]

The impact of social media has imo been huge.
As an example I'd suggest Durness. It might be a terrific course, it might have an amazing location but until fairly recently it was essentially unknown. Over the last few years photos and write-ups galore have been posted on social media etc about it, many by themselves, and as a consequence visitors and a higher profile in rankings (from an essentially zero starting point) have resulted.
atb

I think social media, influencers and rankings are more or less the same....its all social media one way or another.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m not going to be able to elucidate what I really mean here without going down a rathole. Probably shouldn’t have started the thread.


Suffice to say that the influencers out there I am talking about are the second level bloggers, vloggers and tweeters, the ones that are completely buying in to a narrative and then repeating it ad-nauseam without much original opinion or critical thinking.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Are rankings and ratings now really just an output driven by numerous social media “influencers”?

Were our “best” golf courses always decided this way? There just used to be a bunch of really good courses: We didn’t get what we are supposed to like rammed down our throat by a collective who pretend to know more than everyone else…. Or did we? Just in a more subtle, slow way?

Ally, I don't think anyone on a ranking panel for a magazine feels as though they "know more than everyone else." I know I don't and neither do the other panelists I know. I probably have seen more of the highly ranked courses than most, however. I just know what I like and don't like and score accordingly. Over the last 30 years of doing it for GD my tastes have changed. I look back at some of the scores I made thirty years ago and cringe. I like to think that I have grown in my appreciation and that my taste buds have matured. This site has helped a bunch.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tommy,


I’m not even sure I’m talking about ranking panelists. But I definitely feel there’s a sect of influencers who are really just repeating a common thread.


Think I’m just frustrated at a lot of high-level critiques I read from people who pass themselves off as golf course experts: It’s particularly the ones I read that are black and white proclaiming there is only one right way. Some of those people must have made their way on to ranking panels.

[Tim Martin]

Tommy,


I’m not even sure I’m talking about ranking panelists. But I definitely feel there’s a sect of influencers who are really just repeating a common thread.


Think I’m just frustrated at a lot of high-level critiques I read from people who pass themselves off as golf course experts: It’s particularly the ones I read that are black and white proclaiming there is only one right way. Some of those people must have made their way on to ranking panels.

Ally-The rub is that a social media influencer by definition is “an expert in their field.” An instagram account and a line of merchandise does not make that so.

[Tom_Doak]

The downside of having more people interested in golf course architecture, is having more people who think they’re experts.


But that’s true in every field - look at the number of people who think they are film critics or food critics!  The only difference is that the golf business is so small but so spread out that someone might actually pay attention to a new voice.

[Sean_A]

Tommy,


I’m not even sure I’m talking about ranking panelists. But I definitely feel there’s a sect of influencers who are really just repeating a common thread.


Think I’m just frustrated at a lot of high-level critiques I read from people who pass themselves off as golf course experts: It’s particularly the ones I read that are black and white proclaiming there is only one right way. Some of those people must have made their way on to ranking panels.

On some level there is no better expert than the guy who pays for a greenfee. I don't know if that level is merely personal favourites or whatever, but the customer's PoV has to be considered important. Though I take your point that true influencers are reimbursed for their opinion and thus are a bit suspect.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m not even sure what I’m kicking against here seeing as I tend to have a somewhat similar view on golf courses to the prevailing wind that is currently blowing.


Well I do know. I just suspect there are a bunch of far too outspoken voices who really haven’t put much thought in to the
makeup of a course outside of the buzzwords like strategy, width, fun and ground contour.


But I’m also just feeling argumentative today. As Tom says, there are spoofers in all forms of critical analysis. They just find it easier to get a voice now.


(Incidentally, I am not referring to people on this website).

[Mark_Fine]

Ally,
Nothing has changed.  You just pay more attention to certain lists and influencers than you used to. Lists of all kinds have always been critical to human life.  We can’t exist without them.  Whether it is a grocery list, a bucket list, a list of what you have to get done at home or at work today, or a list of what courses you want to experience when you travel across the country or around the world to do so. Lists, whether perfectly accurate or not, are what guide us. All of us can be influencers in how some of those lists get refined and today with social media and sites like this, more of our opinions get heard.  Love them or hate them, golf courses lists of all kinds will always be with us and some will influence more than others (if we let them) 

[Kyle Harris]

How many restoration committee meetings in 100 years are going to come to blows because one faction wants the August 6, 2021 version and another faction wants the September 24, 2019 (7:48AM CDT) version?


Imagine the level of archival data we now have via social media 100 years ago.

[Ronald Montesano]

Here's a bit of a Saturday-morning ramble
As a guy who runs a website, and writes for another, I'll share that the internet has changed a bunch over the last ten years. For smaller sites, it's critical to align social media posts with articles. Funny part is, a share of a link on social media doesn't always equate to a read of that article. A fellow who writes for a local paper shared that bit with me, and I see it happen with my site.

The way the metrics have changed on Instagram in the last year, we now receive a ton of suggestions, based on previous visits. It is amazing how many photographers have taken to golf course photography. I'm guessing that this would not have happened if drone photography had not taken an upward turn in both ease and access. Drone photography is sexy, and it gives us views that we could not get anywhere in the past but aboard a helicopter or a landing plane.

The other thing that drone photography gives us, is a tie-in with the entire course and the surrounding landforms. This allows some of the social media folks and site writers to easily access the sort of discussion points mentioned earlier in the thread.

Here's my closing bit. I don't have a home course, but I pay special and close attention to the opinions of the folks that I play with, at their home courses. A single play, unless you are a trained architect, is never enough to get a remote sense of a course. We often hear our Golf Club Atlas colleagues in the biz who talk about doing a walkabout of a course or a property. My guess is that 

In addition, if you are shooting pictures, it's hard to pay super-close attention to the course and your game. If you are playing intense golf, you can't focus your lens as closely on the course. A lot of the aforementioned influencers have teams around them, and they are able to manage all aspects of the photo shoot and course assessment. What they don't have is time and daylight to really get to know a course.

[John Kavanaugh]

As a leading anti-influencer all I can say is....I told you so.

[Steve Lang]

Hate the word "influencers,"  too soft, call a spade a spade, they're propagandists either for real (profit) or in training... so, buyer beware    PLAY ON

[Kalen Braley]

The Tom's in the thread are correct.

As Tom said, no doubt this stuff has been around since the dawn of time, and it applies to everything.

And Thomas is right that the social media age has increased one's ability to be an influencer and peddle their messaging by a near exponential amount. 

P.S.  I used to think technology aka the digital/information age would save the world from misinformation and tyranny, but I was woefully wrong...

[Thomas Dai]

Once upon a time you needed a camera and had to pay Mr Kodak or Mr Fuji for film and someone else to develop the film. And you likely wouldn’t get the photos back for a few days. And you were careful not to snap a photo that might not come out ok coz it was expensive and wasteful.
Now you can snap away or video away to your hearts content on your phone, delete it if you don’t like it or enhance it via some phone based softwear, touch a couple of icons and it’s visible in a few seconds on the far side of the World. And there are drones too!
Easy-peasy and you don’t need to be a proper professional or skilled amateur photographer to do it. And you can even get paid for doing so although not necessarily oodles of cash if you post in certain places online.
Where will we be in say 5-10–20 years time?
Atb

[Tim Martin]

Once upon a time you needed a camera and had to pay Mr Kodak or Mr Fuji for film and someone else to develop the film. And you likely wouldn’t get the photos back for a few days. And you were careful not to snap a photo that might not come out ok coz it was expensive and wasteful.
Now you can snap away or video away to your hearts content on your phone, delete it if you don’t like it or enhance it via some phone based softwear, touch a couple of icons and it’s visible in a few seconds on the far side of the World. And there are drones too!
Easy-peasy and you don’t need to be a proper professional or skilled amateur photographer to do it. And you can even get paid for doing so although not necessarily oodles of cash if you post in certain places online.
Where will we be in say 5-10–20 years time?
Atb

I’ve seen the “I’ll provide you with a scad of digital pictures in return for a free greens fee” play. This is not where the course contacts the photographer but where the photographer contacts the course out of the blue. Access whoring has certainly evolved in the digital age.

[Jaeger Kovich]

How many restoration committee meetings in 100 years are going to come to blows because one faction wants the August 6, 2021 version and another faction wants the September 24, 2019 (7:48AM CDT) version?

Imagine the level of archival data we now have via social media 100 years ago.

Depends if they are restoring intent or what was actually built and grassed!

[Mark Fedeli]

There are far more social media influencers that celebrate getting blind drunk by the fourth hole at the local Fazio and driving golf carts full speed into the nearest bunker than there are influencers promoting Durness. They certainly have more followers, at least. So I don’t think you have much to worry about. 

[Kyle Harris]

How many restoration committee meetings in 100 years are going to come to blows because one faction wants the August 6, 2021 version and another faction wants the September 24, 2019 (7:48AM CDT) version?

Imagine the level of archival data we now have via social media 100 years ago.

Depends if they are restoring intent or what was actually built and grassed!

What do you know about that anyway?